Tricking the Willing...

[RigaMortus]

Let's say you are in a roleplay scenario, and the "friendly" court Wizard wants to cast a spell on you. He assures you it is safe spell, it is for the protection of the king. And in order to seek audience with him, you need to have this spell cast on you. Let's assume the Wizard passes all the sense motive checks, and you really have no reason to distrust him. So you say, "Sure, why not?"

Now the Wizard casts a spell, but it is NOT the spell you thought he was going to cast. But your character doesn't know this, and you have no Ranks in Spellcraft, and if you did, let's assume you'd fail anyway...

Now, when it comes time for the Will save, would the player get a save since it wasn't the spell he thought it was going to be (again, not that he knows this) or would he not get a save because he assumes he is casting a particular spell on him, and even if the Wizard lied and switched to another spell, the character wouldn't know this and since he said he'd be willing, he is?

I'm trying to avoid this:

DM: Ok, you are Charmed.
Player: But he said he was casting Zone of Truth.
DM: He lied.
Player: Well I was only willing to allow Zone of Truth in, not Charm Person, so I should get a save vs. that...

 

[Scharlata]

[...] Now, when it comes time for the Will save, would the player get a save since it wasn't the spell he thought it was going to be [...]

Hi!

Would you insist that a typical fighter without Spellcraft ranks has to make a saving throw when the friendly cleric at the temple in town casts a requested spell on him?

Is it not true that a wounded fighter who has no ranks in Spellcraft and therefore has no chance to identify if the cleric casts a Cure or an Inflict spell on him on demand gladly accepts a spell he thinks must be a Cure spell?

If you allow a PC to skip the saving throw routine, because he expects that nothing harmful happens, I'd say you are allowed to skip the save, because you have applied every "bluffing procedure" on the PC.

I've done that as a DM without mercy and without regret.

Kind regards

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

"the nature of magic" in your system is the answer for you...


But I'll try to indicate what the rules imply...


Do characters receive a reflex save to avoid a trap they didn't know was there? Yes.

Consier an even dozen of such scenarios.

End result? The player always gets a save against any unwanted effect, even if the player didn't know that it was an unwanted effect... otherwise, illusions on traps and such would be deadly... a simple sign in front of a fountain of magically poisoned water reading "fountain of youth" with an infant splashing in it would kill at least one player

So yeah, the player should get his save... However, I wouldn't tell him about it. Just like I typically roll the rogues 'search' roll when looking for traps.

I'd roll the players save as a hidden roll (I'm always rolling dice behind the screen, keeps 'em confused about why I'm rolling them) and not let him know... after all, if the spell works and he failed, and he's charmed - he *doesn't* know until after the spell wears off, right?

If he makes the roll, I'll give him a good description with a clue or two and let him take it from there.

 

['o Skoteinos]

The answer is in the Accepting the Results of a paragraph. I will cast Cure Light Wounds on you. CLW has a save, so a fighter would accept the result (because saving reduces the good effect) and not get a save if the Cleric decided to cast Inflict.

Now, unless a character can feel the difference between a benificial spell and a harmful spell, then yes, he should get a save. However, nowhere in the rules does it indicate that a character can make that distinction without Spellcraft.

 

[Al]

Do characters receive a reflex save to avoid a trap they didn't know was there? Yes.

I'd respectfully disagree. There is a key difference between a trap whose *existence* you are unaware of and a spell whose existence you are but whose effects you are not.

For example, if the said fighter, as has already been pointed out, were to receive a cure spell from a friendly cleric, the DM would not assume that he chose to save against it. The same is true irrespective of 'awareness'. If the fighter is surprised, hit by a hidden rogue but the cleric who noticed the rogue was on hand to heal the fighter, the fighter would be unaware of the spell but still able to choose whether or not to save against it.

The emphasis is not on awareness but on acceptance. Just as the fighter forgoes a save against the cleric's cure, so he actively opts to forgo a save against the tricky vizier. With no ranks in Spellcraft, the fighter has no way of knowing what spell is being cast so it is assumed that he accepts it either way. It's tough, but perhaps the aforementioned fighter would consider investing in Skill Focus (Sense Motive) instead of Great Cleave ?

 

[DreamChaser]

i would allow a Will save with a hefty penalty (like a -10). As the character feels somethign happen other than what he was expecting, he would attempt to avoid it but it would probably be too late.

DC

 

[RuminDange]

"Do characters receive a reflex save to avoid a trap they didn't know was there? Yes.

Consier an even dozen of such scenarios.

End result? The player always gets a save against any unwanted effect, even if the player didn't know that it was an unwanted effect...

In the case you state, the character would get a save because they are traveling though an area that they know "might" hold danger of some form. Place a trap in their home in a highly traveled area and they are not expecting danger. Saves represent the awareness of the character (Ref), Strength of body or mind (Fort or Will) to ward off or get out of dangerous situations. If you think you are safe (and you are not) you delude your senses and therefore get no chance to react or fight off the effect. i.e. Maybe the reason most accidents happen at home...stepping on toys left on the stairs, tripping over vacuum cord, etc.

I would say that they have lowered their defenses, deluded their instinct into believing they are safe and therefore no save. If they have reason to distrust the wizard at all, like investigating an attempt on the king's life by an unknown assassin or something then maybe a save with the DM Friendly -2 attached as they lower their defenses but gut instinct makes them leery and they try defend against it at the last moment. Also if they want to delude the wizard and/or king I would say a save is in order.

Of course making the save for them in secret can also keep hard feelings from happening, but in some cases they may not accept that either as they believe you've had them fail on purposes to railroad them. Depends on if the players trust the DM or if you have done such a thing before.
Easiest way to handle it in my opinion is if they lower their defense to accept the spell no matter what willingly then no save. Period. If they want to be picky about it, then all spells no matter who cast them would require a save, so the next time their character is unconscience and dying and the cleric goes to heal them they get a save. Make it and no healing.

RD

 

[Sejs]

And then you say to yourself "....wait, wizards can't cast Zone of Truth..."

 

[Scharlata]

And then you say to yourself "....wait, wizards can't cast Zone of Truth..."

Hi!

But you mumble that to yourself, not your character without Spellcraft ranks to himself, because he shouldn't know too much of those things...

And maybe the wizard is a multiclass character, or he has taken Arcane Disciple as a feat, or something completely legal comes to mind that your character can't probably know....

Kind regards

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Saving Throws represent more than resistance, or agility in dodging traps or whatnot. A part of what a Saving Throw represents is luck. Heroic good fortune or what have you. Because of that, I don't deny a saving throw against a harmful effect, even if the PC was duped into believing it would be beneficial. There's a reason it's called "dumb luck."

Edit to add:

But you mumble that to yourself, not your character without Spellcraft ranks to himself, because he shouldn't know too much of those things...

It takes, what?, a few hours to familiarize yourself with the PH and know what spells a wizard can cast. You think a fighter, whose life depends on knowing such things, wouldn't have taken a few hours to know what wizards and clerics are capable of?