Tricking the Willing...

[Sejs]

But you mumble that to yourself, not your character without Spellcraft ranks to himself, because he shouldn't know too much of those things...

Sort of, and I can see where you're coming from. But as a counterpoint, I myself am not a scientist in any way but I can still tell the basic differences between what a particle physicist does versus what a marine biologist does. Even though I don't know the nuts and bolts of what either one does, and almost assuredly couldn't identify what's going on in an active experiment without having to ask "So, what'cha up to?" I can still reasonably say that if they're doing stuff with free electron substructures it's one thing, versus doing stuff involving organs, neurotransmitters and growth beds, it's the other.

 

[Chorn]

What about a Sense Motive check opposed by the caster's Bluff with a +2 synergy for 5 ranks in Spellcraft? If the target wins the opposed check, he can put his shields back up and get a save as normal. I'd say you could do this in addition to making a Spellcraft check to identify the spell. You may not know the spell, but that sinister gleam in the caster's eyes seems suspicous.

 

[dcollins]

Edit to add:It takes, what?, a few hours to familiarize yourself with the PH and know what spells a wizard can cast. You think a fighter, whose life depends on knowing such things, wouldn't have taken a few hours to know what wizards and clerics are capable of?

On this debate, I certainly come down on the side of these things being complete mysteries to the masses without magical training. Every fantasy setting (game, novel, myth, what-have-you) portrays magic as being mysterious, miraculous, and closely guarded secrets by the few who understand them.

Magic spells are the trade secrets of the fantasy world, even if as players we know they are all well-defined.

 

[RigaMortus]

Edit to add:It takes, what?, a few hours to familiarize yourself with the PH and know what spells a wizard can cast. You think a fighter, whose life depends on knowing such things, wouldn't have taken a few hours to know what wizards and clerics are capable of?

There is a difference between what you as a PLAYER knows, and what you as a CHARACTER knows. I highly doubt your Fighter picked up a Player's Handbook in the last treasure room and decided to read it.

Also, who's to say he wasn't a Mystic Theurge. The position he held was "court wizard". He could be a Sorcerer or even Cleric for all we know. His position is still court wizard. I've played in games where we'd run across a town marshal. That doesn't mean he is a Marshal from the Mini HB.

 

[Sejs]

There is a difference between what you as a PLAYER knows, and what you as a CHARACTER knows. I highly doubt your Fighter picked up a Player's Handbook in the last treasure room and decided to read it.

Right. He just spent his entire life growing up in a world in which wizards and what they can do are a reality. I'm sure he would have much less information available to him than a couple chapters in one book.

No, really.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

On this debate, I certainly come down on the side of these things being complete mysteries to the masses without magical training.

Is the casting of Magic Missile a mystery to the fighter? i.e. the way the magical forces interact with each other to produce a force effect for 1d4+1 damage? Absolutely.

Is the fact that a low-level wizard can cast Magic Missile, maybe Shield or Mage Armor, and likely has to fall back on a light crossbow if pressed, also a secret? Not bloody likely.

These are real powers. And as much as wizards might want to keep their limitations secret, they are not going to succeed so long as there are a lot of wizards using their powers where others can see and guage their effectiveness.

 

[RigaMortus]

Right. He just spent his entire life growing up in a world in which wizards and what they can do are a reality. I'm sure he would have much less information available to him than a couple chapters in one book.

No, really.

Not even Wizard's themselves know all the secrets of magic, I doubt a Fighter would. There are plenty of spells that are yet undiscovered.

Also, it depends in the campaign setting you are in as well. I've played in settings where it was low Magic. The highest level Wizard (in the world) was level 5, and they had a position of prestige in the bustling capitol city, far, far away. Meanwhile, me and my motley crew of adventurers just "left the farm" so to speak. We lived in a small town, practically devoid of magic. I assure you it would be unrealistic, even in a fantasy sense, that my character know even the most basic capabilities of a Wizard.

Is the casting of Magic Missile a mystery to the fighter? i.e. the way the magical forces interact with each other to produce a force effect for 1d4+1 damage? Absolutely.

Is the fact that a low-level wizard can cast Magic Missile, maybe Shield or Mage Armor, and likely has to fall back on a light crossbow if pressed, also a secret? Not bloody likely.

These are real powers. And as much as wizards might want to keep their limitations secret, they are not going to succeed so long as there are a lot of wizards using their powers where others can see and guage their effectiveness.

You are getting hung up on the word "wizard" as a class description. If my level 10 Fighter was wondering around town and someone came up to me and asked what I did for a living, if I said "I am the greatest warrior ever" that does not mean I am a Warrior class. I just described my Fighter Class in a more general sense (as a warrior).

As I stated before, the town marshal may not be the Marshal class. The mystic shaman may not be a mystic nor a shaman. The assassin that tries to kill you may not be a prestige class assassin, but a Cleric of Nerul. And the court wizard may not actually be a Wizard at all. He could be a Sorcerer, or a Cleric, or a generic Spellcaster, or a Mystic Theruge. Heck, maybe he is a common street magician and just claims to be a Wizard. You don't know, you just blew your Sense Motive saves, remember?

But one good point you do have is, if the "court wizard" said he was going to cast Zone of Truth, you as a player will have a hunch that he *may* not be a Wizard class at all. Of course, maybe he is going to use a Miracle spell to mimic Zone of Truth. Or maybe, just maybe he took Arcane Disciple (Cleric Domain: Inquisition) and casts Zone of Truth from that as a Wizard... Guess we'll never know...

Back on point... It looks like we are split on this, yes? Some say he'd still get the save, others say he wouldn't get it because he chose to give it up and doesn't have a clue that a different spell will be cast on him...

 

[argo]

Do characters receive a reflex save to avoid a trap they didn't know was there? Yes.

Exactly. The fighter does not know the trap is there and so when it comes he gets a save to avoid the unexpected. In this case, the fighter does know a spell is comming and he chooses to sit there and take it (which he can do according to the RAW, you can always choose to forego a save). I say if he fails his Sense Motive rolls he is done for. That's the price of being gullible.

Of course, failing the sense motive does not mean the player has to accept the spell. He could always tell the advisor to bite him and leave.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Heh - the debate only proves my point.


How does magic work in your world? Or, to paraphrase, what's the theory of magic in your world?

Two cases can be made for your specific instance...
When magic is cast at a target, that target can 'sense' the magical effect occurring. At this point, instincts can kick in - screaming "NO" and/or be consciously overridden.

-or-

Saves vs magical spells are a conscious thought that once overridden, can't be changed.

As a third 'theory' of magic, try this...
I, the fighter, will allow a 'zone of truth' to be cast on me.
The wizard casts Charm Person on me.
This I resist.

Do I, as a fighter, need to know what spell is being cast in order to choose to resist or not? If so, how do I, as a fighter (in game, not metagame) know whether to use Fort, Will, or Reflex?

The point of a trap being in a dangerous area is irrelevant. Traps can be anywhere, saves vs magic can happen anytime in DnD. Living life as a fighter in DnD is much more dangerous than driving your car... and think how dangerous that is.

I disagree with the latter as a player and as a GM. It opens the field to far too many dangers. Just because I agree to a spell doesn't mean I'm not going to resist it if my instincts scream at me loudly enough.

Of course, in this specific instance, it boils down to how much you trust that wizard? From a metagame - the wizard can't know if he succeeded or failed until he tests the spell. The fighter, if there isn't a STRONG level of trust, might well have resisted in a general fashion.


However, don't get bogged down in the specific situation - think of the generic one.

You should always be allowed a save vs any spell that allows it - unless you choose to not take that save.

In this case - if you role played the whole thing well enough, the fighter would never have clued in the first place, and thus the whole question becomes academic.

I know where I stand - I'd've rolled the fighters save for him without telling him anything about it. I'd trust the player to role play through it and not metagame .

 

[mikebr99]

It takes, what?, a few hours to familiarize yourself with the PH and know what spells a wizard can cast. You think a fighter, whose life depends on knowing such things, wouldn't have taken a few hours to know what wizards and clerics are capable of?

which, respectfully should be represented as at least one rank in spellcraft on the fighters character sheet. If he doesn't care enough to buy some ranks, then he really shouldn't have a clue.


Mike