Trip? Disarm? Sunder? Gone forever?

[Exquisite Dead Guy]

Ninja'd!

 

[WhatGravitas]

You, sir, have clearly never seen katanae in action.

Katanai don't need sunder to do this.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Mort_Q]

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=227323

 

[ArmoredSaint]

You, sir, have clearly never seen katanae in action.

You're not serious, are you?

 

[Primal]

I would rule an ad-hoc stunt: Melee atk vs Ref defense; success gives -5 to AC/attacks as appropriate.

(You don't fully trip/disarm/sunder, but you force your opponent on to the defensive or off balance, thus hindering their ability to fight.)

I think there *were* such stunts presented as examples of improvised actions in 4E DMG? Melee atk vs. Ref, IIRC.

 

[frankthedm]

Katanai don't need sunder to do this.

Cheers, LT.

If your foe is wielding balsa wood weapons or swinging tatami mats.

What sunder comes down to is most battle ready weapons really are designed to be beat up and a blow that will break them probably took the weapon out of the wielder's hand.

 

[saric]

Tripping and disarming in most fantasy action seems to happen to mooks, surprised characters and worn-down opponents, not to the Dark Lord at the climax of the adventure.

star wars episode 3, count dooku vs anakin skywalker, i'd say that counts as a disarm eh?

mace windu vs darth sidious in the same movie...

lancelot vs prince malagant in "first knight"...

im sure there is more examples with other movies, books.


Personally I think that the maneuvers shouldn't be totally removed, rather that they should belong in the game in their current form or just allowed maybe 1/encounter much like they did to "feint".
Granted, I don't agree with option #2, but it still could be an option.

The thing i most resent is the removal of the fighting defensively option and not including a way to improve defenses while attacking. if they put power attack in, a version of combat expertise or fighting defensively should exist.

This is what I plan on including in my 4th edition game when I start running it.

Disarm-
1. Provoke an Opportunity attack unless you have the improved disarm feat.
2- make an opposed basic melee attack, if you succeed the opponent drops his weapon in his square.
the following bonuses apply to the roll:
+2 for each size category larger
+2 for wielding a weapon in two hands.
wielders of a light weapon or an item that isn't a weapon take a -2 to this roll.


Feats:

Improved Disarm (heroic tier)
Prerequisites: int 15
Benefits: You do not provoke an opportunity attack when attempting a disarm. You gain a +2 to disarm checks.

You could follow the same train of thought for trip checks and sunder.


Combat Expertise (heroic tier)
Prerequesites: Int 15
Benefits: you take a -2 to attack rolls until the start of your next turn. you gain a +1 bonus to ac and reflex defense
at level 11-20 the bonus increases to +2
at level 21+ the bonus increases to +3.

 

[mmu1]

Don't you people get it? Since it's not in 4E, it couldn't have been important!

So if your players ask about it, just make it so difficult that they'll only try once and then never bother you again.

 

[JohnSnow]

star wars episode 3, count dooku vs anakin skywalker, i'd say that counts as a disarm eh?

mace windu vs darth sidious in the same movie...

lancelot vs prince malagant in "first knight"...

im sure there is more examples with other movies, books.

Let's not forget that Luke Skywalker gets "disarmed" twice in the battle on Bespin - once quite literally.

Indiana Jones tends to disarm people on a regular basis. Whips are good for that sort of thing.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

You're not serious, are you?

Of course he's not.

---

This kind of criticism amuse me.

In 3e, no one tried these stunts without the feat. Disarm in particular, was an abominable choice without the feat. Something you'd only try against an opponent that was so outclassed, he was the eqivalent of 4e minion.

So 4e players complaining they can't do without training something they didn't do without training in 3e are being disingeneous, IMO.

---

When you reduce an oponent below 0, you choose what happens. If this ends the fight, you could claim your last attack savantly disarmed AND tripped him and you are now standing over him with his own weapon against his throat.

Why couldn't you do this earlier in the fight? He was still too alert (Had HP).

This definition of disarm match over half the disarm you see in movie : All the disarms that result in the end of the fight.