Trip is an Encounter Power now

[Plane Sailing]

Wow if that 3e example is even remotely accurate I suspect 4e will leave you just as disappointed.

I'd suggest rock, paper, scissors but you know, there are 3 options to choose from so that might be overwhelming for your players.

Did you miss the instructions to not behave like a jerk?

Don't post in this thread again. Thanks

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Wow if that 3e example is even remotely accurate I suspect 4e will leave you just as disappointed.

I'd suggest rock, paper, scissors but you know, there are 3 options to choose from so that might be overwhelming for your players.

Some players are good with the rules and some aren't. I have both types of players in my group. Sometimes even the best players in my group forget simple things one round that they just did the round before hand. Sometimes we go an entire session without a discussion like the one above, sometimes it happens multiple times in one session.

They do happen, however. Normally the problem is that my players remember MORE rules than other groups. And since they remember them all they feel the need to point out stuff people are already factoring in.

Things like:
"Did you remember to add the +2 for bard song?" "Yeah, I included it."
"Remember that provokes." "Yeah, I know, I was planning on taking it."
"Don't forget your haste attack." "Right, I forgot we were hasted."
"Did you add flanking?" "Right, I didn't see I was flanking."

I've actually played in groups that knew the rules much worse and they actually played the game much faster since one person would make a mistake in the rules, no one else would notice and they'd just move on. Someone would provoke from the enemy and the DM and all the players wouldn't notice so no one would make the attack, someone would grapple someone because the DM forgot to apply the size bonus to the grapple check of the monster and no one corrected him, etc.

In my group, it doesn't matter if I get the rules right OR wrong someone will remind me of the rules. It's because my group likes to be VERY precise.

 

[Grydrilnrad]

Possible fix

In my game we use Action Points, a device from the Eberron System.
Basically, characters get 5+1/2 level points each level and it renews each time they gain a level.
I allow these to do a myriad of things for the players, from adding a d6 to a roll to rerolling a d20.
After having one particular battle where one player repeatedly tripped an enemy, basically giving the enemy no chance of even standing up let alone attacking, I decided that trip was broken.

Reading what I have on 4E Im thinking another use for an action point would be using it to gain an ability like the trip attack. Obviously there would be a list of which abilities you can do this with and which you cannot(No gaining spells or magic abilities).
But this would fix the.."But Im a wizard and we cant take the trip attack ability." Use an action point if you feel that your character would like to try to trip the enemy. If you feel its too big a cost, then I guess your character really didnt want to trip them.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Probably been said 100 times but: Tripping an unarmed and mostly inexperienced combatant is a MILLION times different than tripping a heavily armed/armored humanoid or a monster (say a tiger or bear). Good luck to your karate students trying to trip a grizzly bear.

Sure, if we allow trip as a combat action, people will go around *easily* trippling grizzly bears, collosal centipedes and dire elephants! :\ Come on.

A grizzly bear would not only have a very high strength/fortitude, it would get bonuses for large size and 4 legs as well. While it is possible to trip one (knocking it over, knocking two or more of its legs out from under it, etc), it would be far from easy. Most players wouldn't even attempt it, since it would be so difficult. But hey, this is a heroic fantasy game, and if your warrior is skilled and mighty enough to trip a grizzly bear, more power to him, I say!

Heck i can recall on one hand the amount of "trips" (not including throws or takedowns) i have seen in all the MMA fights (K1, UFC, Pride, etc) i have ever seen. Those guys are EXPERT combatants fighting against other unarmed guys, you couldnt prime the situation too much better for tripping.

Again, the problem here is you are mischaracterizing my position. Possible =/= easy. Just because I want something to be possible in the game does not in any way imply that I want it to be either extremely common or easy to do. People keep bringing up skilled fighters, well fine, that's what your level and other stats represent. And depending on how the rules are set up, tripping an opponent of similar experience and skill may indeed be quite difficult to do.

 

[Stalker0]

A grizzly bear would not only have a very high strength/fortitude, it would get bonuses for large size and 4 legs as well. While it is possible to trip one (knocking it over, knocking two or more of its legs out from under it, etc), it would be far from easy. Most players wouldn't even attempt it, since it would be so difficult. But hey, this is a heroic fantasy game, and if your warrior is skilled and mighty enough to trip a grizzly bear, more power to him, I say!

This in a nutshell is the problem with trip in 3e. Either its so hard that its just not worth the effort, or because of your build, its so easy you do it all the time.

The ideal is in the middle ground, but its very hard to balance an at will mechanic to ensure that its useful enough to be used sparingly but not so good its used all the time.

The answer 4e uses is not to limit the power of trip, but to limit your ability to use it. Overall, its a much better way to balance a maneuver, though I agree that for some it breaks versimulitude (I hope I spelled it right).

 

[FitzTheRuke]

There is a better option. First, make Trip At-Will. Second, require that your target provide you Combat Advantage in order to use Trip. This solves both the problem of availability through superior representational abstraction because successfully tripping an opponent is something that doesn't magically fade away once successfully executed, and it solves the exploit problem because it requires the exploitation of an opening left by that opponent, something that is not under your control and thus makes it so that you have to actually watch for that opening instead of just doing it whenever you like.

That sounds good on a realism scale to me.

 

[pemerton]

If verisimilitude requires that tripping be possible independently of the hit point mechanic or per-encounter mechanic, then why does it not require that decapitating someone, or hamstringing them, or knocking them unconscious, be independent of the hit point mechanic and the per-encounter mechanic?

Conversely, if verisimilitude can tolerate that no decapitation happens until hit points have run out, why can't it tolerate that no tripping happens unless some essentially metagame condition (like activation of a per-encounter power) is met?

 

[Kaisoku]

Possibly because tripping doesn't involve instant death? It's just prone.. you can still do things while prone, you don't even have to get up. And depending on how bad the repercussions, it might not even be more than just reducing movement capability and brief bonus to hit/combat advantage.

 

[Imban]

If verisimilitude requires that tripping be possible independently of the hit point mechanic or per-encounter mechanic, then why does it not require that decapitating someone, or hamstringing them, or knocking them unconscious, be independent of the hit point mechanic and the per-encounter mechanic?

Conversely, if verisimilitude can tolerate that no decapitation happens until hit points have run out, why can't it tolerate that no tripping happens unless some essentially metagame condition (like activation of a per-encounter power) is met?

Um, those are independent of the hit-point mechanic in 3e. See: vorpal blades, some of those sneak-attack-trade-in feats, plenty of spells. Also, of those, I would argue that hamstringing someone has historically always been independent of the hit-point mechanic: I can't name a version of D&D in which I've ever seen 1st-party rules for being hamstringed as the result of taking HP damage.

For the rest of it, what does that even mean? Decapitation happening before hit points run out would be far worse because... what? People would be headless, and still fighting because they have hit points? That makes as little sense as only trained fighters being able to even try to trip someone, and even then only once every five minutes or so.

 

[I'm A Banana]

First, make Trip At-Will. Second, require that your target provide you Combat Advantage in order to use Trip.

Genius.

It Is Done.