Triple HP at 1st level?

[Wormwood]

I'm concerned about the elimination of low level play in the new edition. My players and I like low levels. They're simple and fun.

The trick is making higher level play simple and fun.

But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[mhensley]

I'm concerned about the elimination of low level play in the new edition. My players and I like low levels. They're simple and fun.

I don't think the extra hit points are going to change the feel of D&D too much as the R&C book says that there will be some pretty drastic changes to the power levels of many monsters as well. It said that orcs will be aimed more at mid-heroic levels (say 4-6) while gnolls and troglodytes will be opponents for high-heroic levels (7-10th). My guess is that low level parties will still be fighting kobolds and goblins, just like they always did.

 

[Bluenose]

In 3.5, a non-elite-array orc warrior (17 Str) with a greataxe would do 1d12+4 damage, crits for 15-48. An elite array orc barbarian with Power Attack does 1d12+10, crits for 33-66.
So, for this to no longer be lethal, they need to tone down crits. Maybe "minions" can't crit, or maybe greataxes aren't x3.

Well, there seems to be an idea that all attacks crit on a 20, so maybe all damage is x2 as well? That would cut the 'normal' orc down to 10-32, and should let a front-line fighter survive the hit. If they implement some of the other SWSE mechanics it's going to compromise their fighting ability even if they stay on their feet. It's difficult to balance this, though, since there should be some risk.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Because new players are going to start at level 1, spend two hours creating their characters, get into their first combat, die before they even get to act... and never play the game again.

If all they're doing is giving 1st level characters extra hit points*, it's just as trivial to house rule "in my campaign you need to earn them", once you know what you're doing. But it's better to set up the game so that experts can house rule the system, rather than newbies have to house rule the system.

* I suspect they're doing more than that, and that a 4e 1st level PC will be equivalent to a 3e 3rd level PC. In which case, house ruling the low levels back in becomes much harder.

I agree, pretty much, with this assessment.

As the developers have said again and again, this system is something that even inexperienced players should be able to have a fun time playing. And inexperienced plays will start at level one and have no idea how fragile they are if they rules make them incredibly weak.

On the other hand, experienced players and DMs can come up with pretty simple rules to play apprentices or something similar. It doesn't even have to be that difficult. Reduce the HPs, take a feat or a power away and go at it.

 

[Nine Hands]

Force point. The PCs will NEVER DIE IN ONE SHOT. It takes them being down on the ground and shot in the head a second time to do it. Even then, the PC who feels strongly enough about it can spend a Destiny Point to make it miss after the fact. I've seen it a dozen times in the game.

But your playing Star Wars, its supposed to be like the books and movies. Did you see Han Solo get killed outright in the movies? People only die when the story dictates it, which is great for Star Wars.

Now I like my D&D games to feel like a book or movie. One shotting a PC is not fun in my opinion, there are much more vicious things I can do to a character than kill them.

I doubt you will see spending of Action Points to keep a character alive in D&D but it will definitely be a house rule in my game.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

The real sticking point for me on making 1st-level PCs tougher is the 1-HD humanoids. I can see wanting 1st-level PCs to be able to defeat wolves, dire rats, and things that you would expect an armed and armored veteran medieval footman to be able to defeat.

But hobgoblins? You have a race of warriors that are, in 3E, as nimble as elves, as tough as dwarves, and as ambitious as humans, and just as smart. They live for battle. And you, a human fighter, can just expect to mow them down like they're nothing because you're a main character and they aren't? I liked 3E's balance in this regard. A 1st-level PC fighter was a bit better than a non-elite NPC warrior, but not overwhelmingly so.

Stormtroopers' total ineptness was a flaw of Star Wars in my opinion, not a feature. YMMV. On the other hand, Boromir mowing down Uruk-Hai was fine with me, because he was supposed to be Gondor's greatest hero.

Maybe you could add 2 HD to most humanoids and giants, and keep most animals as they are. Some animals were too tough in 3E, no question. Keep skeletons as 1-HD, they make good fodder, and give kobolds 1 HD and most Small humanoids 2 HD.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I don't think the extra hit points are going to change the feel of D&D too much as the R&C book says that there will be some pretty drastic changes to the power levels of many monsters as well. It said that orcs will be aimed more at mid-heroic levels (say 4-6) while gnolls and troglodytes will be opponents for high-heroic levels (7-10th). My guess is that low level parties will still be fighting kobolds and goblins, just like they always did.

Of course it's going to change.

Wizards will be visciously kicking cats in the street! No longer will they have to fear rolling a 1 at second level and still being under threat of feline death.

This changes EVERYTHING! It's like a Marvel Comic Summer Event!

 

[glass]

Doesn't this just up the power level all round, though? Give PCs triple hp, so the enemies they face can now be tougher, which means effectively you're starting at a higher level in any case. Triple hp is just a 'poor man's' 3rd level, really, simply because the enemies also get tougher.

Your opponents get slightly tougher on average, because the extra hit points expand the range of suitable challenges at first level to something closer to what it is at higher levels.


glass.

 

[glass]

I think it's actually kind of a problem if two 1st level fighters don't have the ability to cut each other in half with one lucky blow from a greataxe. Greataxes seem like they should be, well, dangerous.

They will. Its just that you don't get a 'lucky' blow until your opponent luck (ie hp) runs out.


glass.

 

[glass]

I'm concerned about the elimination of low level play in the new edition.

Have you read the thread? Some of us think that what they are doing is the opposite of 'eliminating low level play'.


glass.