Triple HP at 1st level?

[frankthedm]

One thing to keep in mind is that in SAGA the triple HP are really HD + HD + HD + CON mod.

 

[Urbannen]

This will be a good idea if they have the gumption to refer to "apprentice" levels. Apprentice levels would receive fewer HP and skill points. The D&D convention of barely experienced characters striking out on their own doesn't make a lot of sense. Given the low level of power of most 1st and 2nd level characters, they would more realistically follow higher - level characters until they got more power.

If they change the name of 2nd or 3rd level and make it 1st level, then things become a little more realistic, but the game convention would be maintained.

 

[Jhulae]

They may change the HD classes get though. In saga there are only two HD types D8 and D10.

And d6s. Three types of HD.

 

[ruemere]

[...]The bottom line is that low-level, grim play has been phased out of every successive edition, and 4E is doing away with it completely, from the news we've gotten so far. It seems to be going to solely one play style, that of mid-level D&D, throughout the game. What it means for me is that I'll have to use a totally different game, such as Grim Tales, to get this kind of game play from now on, or stick to earlier editions.

WFRP PCs get Fate points, dangerous weapons and greater durability than 1st level d20 characters. It does not preclude low level play.
All you need to do, is to ensure that damage scales appropriately with levels.

For example, if you deem your characters too durable, simply improve monster damage-dealing qualities with fixed bonuses (I found that attack roll bonuses work best). That way, a group of wolves can still present a threat, but they will not pose a threat to overall game balance - it's just that hitpoint reserves will go down as fast as previously.

Of course, one has to somehow rationalize game changes... special monster feats, terrifying effects of unholy ground or similar. Or say to your players that you have improved monsters a bit. Or, my preferred solution, decrease number of magic items in game.

In my Scarred Lands campaign number of characters is significantly bigger than that of canonical four (6-7 plus cohorts), yet, due to scarcity of magic items, their defensive capabilities remain low. That's why a horde of low level monsters still poses a threat - 30 or so Shadowspawn Zombies (homebrew variation of zombie, capable of feeding on death of other monsters in their vicinity) almost wiped down 10th level party in close quarter combat.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Steely Dan]

They may change the HD classes get though

They have stated that HD no longer exist in 4th Ed, along with LA/ECL/CR/EL, there is now only "Level".

 

[Rallek]

In the interests of full disclosure, I will acknowledge that I am not a fan of the majority of changes that have been announced for 4th edition.
That being said, it will perhaps come as no surprise that I am not in favor of the idea of x3 hp at first level, either.


Now taken in a vacuum the change probably makes little difference. After all, if the characters are a bit harder to kill what difference does it
really make? Well, the problem as I see it is that the change does not exist in a vacuum, and as such it must inevitably have an effect on the
campaign world at large.


In specific I am worried about how a PoL setting can sustain itself if 1st level PCs need 3x HP to face the basic threats. In other words, how
can a settlement filled with generic “everybody else” NPCs stand up to the threats that require the “heroic” first level PCs to have 3x HP?


Perhaps this is a non-issue for everyone but me, but the internal consistency of the PoL setting seems a bit problematic under these circumstances, doesn’t it?

 

[frankthedm]

In specific I am worried about how a PoL setting can sustain itself if 1st level PCs need 3x HP to face the basic threats. In other words, how can a settlement filled with generic “everybody else” NPCs stand up to the threats that require the “heroic” first level PCs to have 3x HP?

They lose a few people. For larger threats they lose several people. If the towns gotta fight back, they are not sending out only a few people unless they are specifically being sacrificed.

 

[bgaesop]

They have stated that HD no longer exist in 4th Ed, along with LA/ECL/CR/EL, there is now only "Level".

Hit dice no longer exist? What? Where did they say this? Is everyone just getting a generic number of hitpoints per level now?

 

[Steely Dan]

Hit dice no longer exist? What? Where did they say this? Is everyone just getting a generic number of hitpoints per level now?

Hopefully something along the lines of fixed hp for levelling, it will stop the:


'Bummer, Hal, you've rolled nothing over a 3 for your paladin's hit points the last 3 levels…'

 

[Henry]

WFRP PCs get Fate points, dangerous weapons and greater durability than 1st level d20 characters. It does not preclude low level play.

WFRP characters are marginally more survivable than 1st level 3E D&D characters, and this drops away completely by 3rd level. In addition, WFRP characters have critical hits that can lop off arms, stand risk of diseases that can kill them more easily than D&D diseases (the number of 3E characters who died from a disease outbreak has got to be extremely small), and even spellcasters in WFRP can't depend on their own spells 100% of the time. Or even 50% of the time, depending on the spell. WFRP characters are all about success in spite of themselves, rather than because of them.

All you need to do, is to ensure that damage scales appropriately with levels.

For example, if you deem your characters too durable, simply improve monster damage-dealing qualities with fixed bonuses (I found that attack roll bonuses work best). That way, a group of wolves can still present a threat, but they will not pose a threat to overall game balance - it's just that hitpoint reserves will go down as fast as previously.

Of course, one has to somehow rationalize game changes... special monster feats, terrifying effects of unholy ground or similar. Or say to your players that you have improved monsters a bit. Or, my preferred solution, decrease number of magic items in game.

The part i've always disagreed with is increasing numbers just for the sake of increasing numbers. Why have hit point totals in the dozens and damage in the dozens, when having both in the teens work just as well? I can certainly increase numbers as you mention, but I'm speaking in terms of the game being useful for DMs of all stripes, not just the majority. That the game seems to be phasing out low-level "fragile" play completely in favor of a more powerful baseline means one thing: For the 5th edition, the majority that was happy in 4E is no longer the majority, and the game gets rewritten to even higher baseline numbers again; then in 6E, it gets written to even higher baselines. Before long, it's like RIFTS with "megadamage" and tac-nuke equivalents for 1st level PCs.

More seriously, I can always supplement my play with other games, that's not the point: I just dislike the idea that D&D can no longer support a wide range of play, but seems to be going to "over the top." I'll have to wait and see when June gets here, but all the "over the top" descriptions make me think this is the way it's going.