Trips?

[Caliban]

In Magic of Faerun there is a magic item called a Staff of Mighty Sweeping. It is clear that staffs can be used for Trip attacks, otherwise the item would be completely useless.

Geoff.

The magic of Faerun also thinks that the enhancement bonus from adamantine stacks with a magical enhancement bonus (see "The Fist"), so I wouldn't be taking anything from it as evidence on how the core rules are intended to work.

I believe that the Staff of Mighty Sweeping is effectively a trip weapon as a side effect of it's magic. (Because that's what the writers of the supplement intended.)

 

[dcollins]

There are other examples of excess verbiage.

Daggers: can be used with Weapon Finesse.
Tridents: can be thrown.

No, those do not satisfy a search for weapon descriptions with claims which are true for all weapons in general and by default.

- Melee weapons cannot by default be used with Weapon Finesse.
- Melee weapons cannot by default be used as thrown weapons.

Hence both of those statements are qualities which warrant special notes for those weapons, and are definitely not true for weapons in general.

 

[Stalker0]

Except a trip is not an unarmed strike.

The PHB on page 128 lists whether or not a specific attack action provokes an AoO.

Unarmed Strike does.
Disarm does.
Grapple does.
Trip does not. Since trip attacks are assumed to be unarmed by default, then they don't provoke an AoO. (Otherwise they would state this in the Trip description.) Basically the return trip attempt takes the place of any possible AoO.

Oh, I want to agree with you Caliban, but my inner rules lawyer just won't let it go

I agree that the trip action by itself doesn't provoke AOO. But rereading the description it doesn't assume the attempt is made unarmed. If making an unarmed touch attack didn't provoke an AOO in this instance, then why did the PH go to all the trouble to state that your touch attack doesn't provoke AOO when your holding a spell? I just can't follow the logic that when I'm going to grap someone that makes me less vulnerable than when I intended to strike him with my fists.

 

[Caliban]

Oh, I want to agree with you Caliban, but my inner rules lawyer just won't let it go

I agree that the trip action by itself doesn't provoke AOO. But rereading the description it doesn't assume the attempt is made unarmed. If making an unarmed touch attack didn't provoke an AOO in this instance, then why did the PH go to all the trouble to state that your touch attack doesn't provoke AOO when your holding a spell? I just can't follow the logic that when I'm going to grap someone that makes me less vulnerable than when I intended to strike him with my fists.

Your not grabbing them, that would be a grapple and would provoke an AoO.

You are tripping them, which doesn't require you to get as "close in", you are just hooking one of their extremities.

The simple fact is that "Trip" is not "unarmed strike" and the trip manuever doesn't provoke an AoO. If it did, it would say so.

They didn't want trip to have a "double jeopardy" of both provoking an AoO and letting you get counter-tripped if you fail.

The main point to me is that every other combat manuever in that section goes into detail on when it provokes an AoO. Disarm specifically provokes an AoO whether you do it armed or unarmed. Trip does not provoke an AoO, whether you do it armed or unarmed.

 

[Stalker0]

Your not grabbing them, that would be a grapple and would provoke an AoO.


How am I tripping them then, with my mind?


You are tripping them, which doesn't require you to get as "close in", you are just hooking one of their extremities.


Neither does the initial grab to start a grapple. You can choose to close in after making the grab. But the grab inself provokes AOO.


The simple fact is that "Trip" is not "unarmed strike" and the trip manuever doesn't provoke an AoO. If it did, it would say so.

They didn't want trip to have a "double jeopardy" of both provoking an AoO and letting you get counter-tripped if you fail.


It is only double jeopardy for those without improved unarmed strike or those not using trippable weapons. Which is what this post was originally about. All of the trippable weapons do less damage then their counterparts, because they can trip. Well if you could just trip a guy with your hand and not use the weapon, then your getting the best of both worlds. I understand this also introduces the risk of being tripped in return, but I believe the designers put in trip weapons, so that non monks could trip without penalty with those weapons alone.


The main point to me is that every other combat manuever in that section goes into detail on when it provokes an AoO. Disarm specifically provokes an AoO whether you do it armed or unarmed. Trip does not provoke an AoO, whether you do it armed or unarmed.


Disarm says you provoke AOO when you do it armed or unarmed because otherwise monks could disarm without provoking an AOO, which of course is unbalancing. Trip doesn't say it invokes an AOO because the book already mentions that melee touch attack provokes AOO if you don't have IUS. Its terrible wording on their part, but there you have it.

 

[Caliban]

It is only double jeopardy for those without improved unarmed strike or those not using trippable weapons.

*sigh* For the nth time, Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't help with a trip attack, any more than it would help with a grapple.

A trip may be an unarmed attack, but it's not an unarmed strike, just like a grapple is an unarmed attack, but not an unarmed strike.

It's a different manuever. Thats why you have to take weapon focus (unarmed strike) and weapon focus (grapple) seperately.

Which is what this post was originally about. All of the trippable weapons do less damage then their counterparts, because they can trip. Well if you could just trip a guy with your hand and not use the weapon, then your getting the best of both worlds.

No, you don't.

With a trip weapon you can drop the weapon if you fail to trip them and avoid the counter-trip.

With a trip weapon you can do real damage.

An unarmed trip does neither of these. (A monk can do real damage, but they still can't avoid the counter-trip.)

I understand this also introduces the risk of being tripped in return, but I believe the designers put in trip weapons, so that non monks could trip without penalty with those weapons alone.

Believe what you want, but the rules are pretty clear that tripping someone doesn't provoke an AoO, and there is nothing in the trip description that indicates it's handled differently whether you are unarmed or armed.

 

[Marauder]

Wow Caliban - you are truly possessed of near infinite patience! I would have given up two pages ago. It seems that no matter how many times you type it in separate posts, people still continue to fail to read and/or understand them...

 

[Stalker0]

Wow Caliban - you are truly possessed of near infinite patience! I would have given up two pages ago. It seems that no matter how many times you type it in separate posts, people still continue to fail to read and/or understand them...

Caliban is a very determined person I just hope he remembers that as he's pounding back my points that I actually agreed with him at the beginning of this post!!

Okay, time to bring out the PH quotes.

Just for the record, the glossary of the PH has a seperate reference for unarmed attack and unarmed strike. So when I'm talking about the attack, I'm not just getting the two confused.

Pg. 140: Attacking unarmed provokes an AOO from the character you attack, provided the character if armed.

Pg. 139 Making a Trip attack: Make a melee attack as a melee touch attack. If the attack succeds....

Ok, can we agree that by making a trip attack unarmed I am making an unarmed attack?

Because if we can agree on that, its simply one book passage away from proving my point.

 

[Geoff Watson]

- Melee weapons cannot by default be used with Weapon Finesse.

All Light melee weapons can.

- Melee weapons cannot by default be used as thrown weapons.

All melee weapons with a range listed can.

Hence both of those statements are qualities which warrant special notes for those weapons, and are definitely not true for weapons in general. [/B]

There is nothing about those weapons that warrants special notes.

Geoff.

 

[Caliban]

Caliban is a very determined person I just hope he remembers that as he's pounding back my points that I actually agreed with him at the beginning of this post!!

Okay, time to bring out the PH quotes.

Just for the record, the glossary of the PH has a seperate reference for unarmed attack and unarmed strike. So when I'm talking about the attack, I'm not just getting the two confused.

Pg. 140: Attacking unarmed provokes an AOO from the character you attack, provided the character if armed.

Pg. 139 Making a Trip attack: Make a melee attack as a melee touch attack. If the attack succeds....

Ok, can we agree that by making a trip attack unarmed I am making an unarmed attack?

Because if we can agree on that, its simply one book passage away from proving my point.

No, you aren't making an unarmed attack. You are making an unarmed trip attack.

Besides, the text on page 140 is in reference to striking for damage. You aren't striking them, nor are you doing damage when you trip someone.