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Troublesome player/character

TarionzCousin

Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
The halfling player in my Pathfinder group uses Heroforge. His CMB/CMD always come out about 9 or 10 higher than what it should be. The program calculates it incorrectly.

That is not a valid reason for the player to use that value however. If "M" in your group uses the wrongly calculated numbers on purpose, I think you should punish him. Say "Use the correct value. If I catch it in game I'm going to apply a -10 modifier." Do that once or twice and he'll make sure his numbers are correct.

Honestly, M doesn't sound like a player I would want in my game. Anyone who plays to "get one over" on the DM and other players does not sound like a positive force in the gaming group.
 

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delericho

Legend
I'm not trying to bully him into giving up the PRC. Short of a permanent level drain, there isn't a game mechanic that would allow it, and the player himself is shameless.

I'm also not trying to kill his characters. As I advised the current DM, it won't change anything. All it will do is give him an opportunity to do something worse.

The problem isn't the character.

First thought: No, it is not.

Now: he's not going to change. He's really not.

So here's the question: are you going to continue to put up with him as-is, or are you going to eject him? Because I'm afraid it's that simple.

According to one guy in the group who knows him, he uses a character generator (possibly Heroforge, but I'm not sure) that can be manipulated to come up with wrong bonuses for skills and/or Saves. According to this other player there's a flaw that if you do the creation steps out of order it miscalculates things, giving higher totals than it should.

For dealing with this one, my suggestion would be to take a simple, hard line on it: it's his responsibility to bring a rules-legal character for play. If his character isn't rules-legal, then it can't be used. And if he blames Heroforge, well, that's his problem, not yours.

I recommend taking a hard line on that one, because there's a difference between power gaming and cheating.
 

The problem isn't the character.

Why, exactly, do you play with "M" again?

This is according to the other player, and we have.

His defense is always, "Well, that's what the program says.". Hard to accuse him of willful deception when the sheet comes from an accepted character generator.

The halfling player in my Pathfinder group uses Heroforge. His CMB/CMD always come out about 9 or 10 higher than what it should be. The program calculates it incorrectly.

That is not a valid reason for the player to use that value however. If "M" in your group uses the wrongly calculated numbers on purpose, I think you should punish him. Say "Use the correct value. If I catch it in game I'm going to apply a -10 modifier." Do that once or twice and he'll make sure his numbers are correct.

Honestly, M doesn't sound like a player I would want in my game. Anyone who plays to "get one over" on the DM and other players does not sound like a positive force in the gaming group.

Now: he's not going to change. He's really not.

So here's the question: are you going to continue to put up with him as-is, or are you going to eject him? Because I'm afraid it's that simple.

Wow.

Being an annoying munchkin is bad enough. An annoying CHEATING munchkin shouldn't be tolerated. It might seem harsh but think about how much more enjoyable the games would be without such a disruptive influence. Putting up with it is telling him that such behavior is acceptable.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
I think everyone fudges a dice roll or a number once in a while.

The preplanned, formulaic cheating is an issue, if I can confirm that it's happening.

I'm still holding out some hope though. Pure mechanics players, "Roll players" as some call them, have little emotional investment in their characters, in my experience. Kill one manipulated monstrosity and they'll smile and break out another.

When our last campaign ended though, he had a hard time letting go of his character. He had plot points he really wanted resolved, things that had left his character's future looking pretty bleak. He kept asking or speculating on what happened to the characters after the campaign ended, unwilling to accept that nothing happens "after", that there is no "after" when the story teller stops talking.

Because of this I see a possible lever. We aren't playing until after Memorial day (late May, for those outside the U.S.). That gives me some time to draw him into the story. I started last night.

His character is an Aventi (from Stormwrack) Cleric/Fighter/Pious Templar of a monotheistic deity called Taiia (Deities and Demigods). She comes from a culture where women aren't allowed to advance, which is why sh's "from" there, instead of her currently being there. She often tries to disguise herself to pass as a man. (We've discussed the long term impossibility of the masquerade, without significant ranks in Disguise.)

Our world is pseudo-historical, so Taiia is completely inappropriate,by the way.

His character comes from the Canary island region off the African coast.

Historically, that region (Morocco) is tied to the Berbers. Religiously, they always had their own flavor of whatever religious base they dealt with. They had Egyptian influence in some regions, Jewish in others, Roman and Greek and even Sumerian. To the south was a different region that had a semi monothistic tradition involving Sun and Moon (sometimes seen as one deity and sometimes as two.)

The Berber culture was strictly patriarchal, as were many of the time.

From this historical base we can get a picture of a culture that treats women as property or second class citizens, and worships a jealous deity that is both day and night, sun and moon, creation and destruction.

The Aventi, on the other hand, have no problems with women advancing (being a D&D race/culture rather than an historical one.) According to Stormwrack they are devout followers of the sea god who created them when the island kingdom of Aventus sank. They are by and large Lawful, with everything steeped in ritual and tradition.

So how did an aquatic maid end up in a non-aquatic culture that denies the very existence of the Aventi's sea god, and strives to keep women "in their place"?

The conflict inherent in this dichotomy is fertile ground for an interest back story.

Once I have him engaged with that story, we'll explore how she came to be in Scotland, the lone Cleric to a deity that nobody else in the land has ever heard of. And, of course, her recent PRC choice (taken purely for the Mettle class feature) puts her in constant conflict with either the actual duties of the class, or with pretty much everyone in this land where nobody has ever heard of her jealous goddess.

By "Jealous", I mean, "She is the only real deity, all other faiths are either deluded or willfully mislead."

I can't force the player to change the chosen PRC and I'm not going to try. But with an engaging story line, one that highlights the conflict, I can force the player to see and work with the limits that choice forces on the character.

As for flat out ejecting the player: Not my choice. I DM part of the time, but an ejection takes a vote involving everyone at the table, just as an invitation to play does.
 


DrunkonDuty

he/him
Glad to see you're still flogging this dead horse, Greenfield.

Best of luck with the story thing. But I suspect you will find your efforts wasted.

As usual, I look forward to the rest of the anecdote.
 



Benji

First Post
Greenfield, why are you doing so much work to turn him into a good player? Is it that important to you to transform this guy? Because he's got too separate instances (taking two domains/making up heroforge numbers) of cheating. That's pretty bad. I think, I I don't mean this to be insulting, but instead to become a friend you need to look at why you can't just ditch this guy. Is it the social situation? The fact you've never done it before? That it'd make you feel like you failed as a DM?

Also, from a perspective of a DM going forward, if you hadn't read up on the aventi before he chose to play one, I'd suggest you didn't let him play it. My first rule of letting a character be at the table is 'I must have read it, or it must be made available to me by the player' otherwise it could just be made up/be overbalanced/not appropriate.
 

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