True Resurrection on Skeleton ?

[Thanee]

Basically a simple question...

Can you use True Resurrection to resurrect somone who has been raised as a skeleton (without destroying the skeleton, of course).

The twist is... True Resurrection doesn't need the body and the skeleton is mindless, so the soul should be seperate.

Just curious what you think about this.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Vrecknidj]

I suppose so. I mean, if there's no body whatsoever (as a result of disintegration, perhaps), the spell still works, presumably by recreating a body. So, if someone dies, and then some necromancer uses the body (or just the skeleton) for something else, I suppose the true resurrection just creates a new body.

The new question I have is this. The SRD says "Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age." Let's say some human is disintegrated at age 25. Then, say, 180 years pass. Then some 20th level cleric casts true resurrection. Does the person come back to life? I mean, does the individual age while dead? Or does the "died of old age" clause only apply to the body's age? If so, then does this newly created body get a new maximum duration?

Dave

 

[Li Shenron]

I think an official answer would probably be that you always have to first destroy the undead creature (even if mindless) and then resurrect the person.

To allow True Resurrection to overcome this need would not cause any problem IMO. Are you planning for some weird adventure situation? A resurrected PC meets his own bony structure?

Mmm... actually with a non-good cleric friend who first kills you, then raise your skeleton, and finally true-resurrects you, you could invent a revolutionary (tho expensive) medical tecniques... advanced x-rays It reminds me of the old Crash Test Dummies song: "Aah, aah, aah, aah... here I stand before me..."

 

[Li Shenron]

I mean, does the individual age while dead?

Obviously not.

 

[Thanee]

Hehe, no, we just had a little discussion about what ways there are to stop resurrection, and my idea was to raise the dead as undead (i.e. skeletons) and then dig a deep hole and throw them in. Cheap and reliable.

However, then the question about whether mindless undead should actually work that way arose...

Bye
Thanee

 

[howandwhy99]

I would say it is a flavor issue. Do you want a relatively low level spell (raise undead) to be able to completely counter a ninth level spell? Those countering the True Res would still requires ownership of the body of course. But I think raising undead would be a very common tactic, if you ruled this way.

OTOH, if True Res ignored any condition of the body it might be interesting to run into an old incarnation of oneself. It also might be interesting, if True Res destroyed all physical remains when cast regardless of their condition/location. In this case, keeping the skeleton or zombified remains of someone you dislike could at least be an indicator of their raising.

 

[Knight Otu]

Can you use True Resurrection to resurrect somone who has been raised as a skeleton (without destroying the skeleton, of course).

Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.
Features:
...
Traits:
...
—Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
...

True Resurrection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 9
Casting Time: 10 minutes
This spell functions like raise dead, ...
You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.
...

By the rules, I'm inclined to say, no, you must destroy the skeleton first (either the old-fashioned way, or by casting the spell on the skeleton, which then is resurrected) for the spell to work. If a body exists, true resurrection apparently needs that body to function. That said, a wish spell might reconstruct the body even while the skeleton still is roaming around (or lying still in its hole). The mindless condition seems to have nothing to add or detract.

 

[Sejs]

Not while the undead is still active, no. The soul of the person is busy being undead while the skeleton is still up and about. The Resurrect spell does specifiy that you can use it on undead, but only after they are destroyed.

Another part of why I'd say no is that the game doesn't really differentiate between mindless undead and intelligent undead - undead is undead is undead. If you could True Res currently active undead, you could basically make copies of people - Kill 'em, Create Greater Undead on the corpse to bring them back as a Vampire (with all the abilities they had in life), True Res to get a copy of them as they were when alive, kill the Vampire, and res the Vampire. Bammo, two yous.

 

[wingsandsword]

Personally, I'd say it would work, if you targeted the skeleton with the spell. As for old age, that wasn't the cause of death, and that the victim doesn't age while dead/undead.

You're using 9th level Healing spell to destroy an undead (an bring back the poor fellow who was killed to make it). It's even technically a no-save spell since True Resurection refers to Raise Dead for most of it's effects (but True Resurrection works on undead, unlike Raise Dead and Reincarnate). The only catch would be that, like all attempts to bring back the dead, the soul of the dead must agree (Page 171 3.5 PHB) As long as the soul agrees, the skeleton is destroyed as it's revived to the original target.

At least as I'd rule it in my game.

 

[FireLance]

Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.
Features:
...
Traits:
...
—Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
...

True Resurrection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 9
Casting Time: 10 minutes
This spell functions like raise dead, ...
You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.
...

I would interpret the above rules interactions in the following manner:
1. When you use true resurrection on a functioning undead creature, you turn it back into the living creature that it was before it became undead (provided the subject's soul is willing to return, of course).

2. You can even use true resurrection on an undead creature that has been destroyed. This settles the question of whether turning a person into an undead creature and then destroying it prevents true resurrection. The unambiguous answer is no. To get all rules-lawyery about it, this statement is part of a sentence which expands the power of the spell (it can revive someone killed by a death effect, something that raise dead is not able to do) and follows on from the previous clause instead of being set in contrast (e.g. by the use of "but" or "however"). As such, it should also be interpreted as an expansion of the spell's power (i.e. you can resurrect an undead creature after it has been destroyed) instead of a limitation (i.e. you can only resurrect an undead creature after it has been destroyed).

3. The spell cannot resurrect undead creatures because it turns them back into the living creatures they once were. You cannot cast this spell on a destroyed vampire with the intent of reviving it as a vampire. If the spell works, the subject always becomes a living creature, not an undead creature.