True20 and Modern Games

[Denaes]

Edit: And as long as we are talking about the adaptability of the Expert role, if FX are feat and skill based, why not just let the Expert fill the magic user role as well? In fact, if you do away with the feat restrictions all together you end up with a Combat option and a Skill option that cover everything, no need for an Adept at all.

Without houserules, True20 doesn't have a skill based "FX" system. It's Feat based.

A lot of GMs are removing the restrictions for Feats, which does have reprocussions.

The Adept: She doesn't become useless, but less useful. Her main ability now is that only Adept Levels give bonuses to her magic ability bonus. So a Level 10 Adept with the same powers as a level 10 Warrior would far outclass the warrior with their powers.

The Expert: She suffers far worse by removing restrictions. Taking them out and all taking the Expert Role does is give you extra skills on the first Expert Level & 2 Good Saves. So past level 1, all you have is saving throw bonuses.

The Warrior: She stands to benefit the most. Highest attack abilities and can now take Supernatural and Expert Feats.

Nothing wrong with it, but thats how things play out.

 

[Laslo Tremaine]

Please forgive me for over-use of the quote feature, but I am having a hard time understanding this viewpoint...

We are getting to the crux of my concern for True20 in modern settings. The Adept. To leave it out seems to leave the system incomplete. On the other hand a pure magic using class, from level 1 on, also seems wrong for a modern game. Now I realize thats a personal prefrence, but to me if you have these full spellcasters running around its no longer even a fictionalized version of the real world, its Waterdeep with I-Pods and Ice Cream.

Here is where I am confused. You want to use True20 for a modern system, but you are concerned that magic is too powerful. But at the same time you are concerned that if you leave the Adept role out of the game, it is now incomplete. I personally have no problems removing the Adept for a no FX game. No magic, fine, no Adept and no supernatural powers. It would not effect the game in any way. The Expert and the Warrior can quite adequately model pretty much any real-life modern character concept.

So, do you say that no one can take Adpet at 1st level? That too seems contrary to the system.

Why is this contrary to the system? If you want a modern game with FX, but you don't want them to be too powerful, then just say that Adepts must multi-role 50/50 with another role.

Presto! Low-power magic or psionics without having to alter the game system one bit.

The modern rules in True 20 seem like an add-on. The core conciet seems to be to model Fantasy Role Play. Which it seems like it would do very well. I am not entirelly sure there can be a Generic RPG that fits everything. Someone said the beauty of True 20 is that you lay the flavor on top of its rules. I don't know if you can do that. The designers mostly likely had a direction in mind, however broad it might have been, and that was probablly DnD like Fantasy. The further from that direction you go the less applicable the sytem seems to be.

I will not deny that True20 evolved from Blue Rose, which is indeed a fantasy setting (but pretty un-D&D-like). At the same time, you can call powers psionics instead of magic, and you no longer have a generic fantasy bent.

I guess that my base question is: What modern character concept are you not able create using True20? Granted, you might need to import a feat or two for things like vehicle stunts or gun stunts, but that is pretty trivial to do.

Edit: And as long as we are talking about the adaptability of the Expert role, if FX are feat and skill based, why not just let the Expert fill the magic user role as well? In fact, if you do away with the feat restrictions all together you end up with a Combat option and a Skill option that cover everything, no need for an Adept at all.

From my point of view, the reason for the Adept role is one of game balance. The Supernatural Powers system in True20 is pretty versatile and broad-reaching and the Adept role is a trade-off. To be able to access the full range of powers, you give up some skills, BAB and saves (as compared to the Expert). I personally like this feature, and see no reason to change it.

Edited for clarity

 

[Ranger REG]

One note to make, Adept doesn't just cover magic users, but also those who are inherently supernatural from what I recall.

Again to steal from d20 Modern jargon, the Adept is an FX role, which may not work well in a non-FX modern-day setting.

 

[arkham618]

Edit: And as long as we are talking about the adaptability of the Expert role, if FX are feat and skill based, why not just let the Expert fill the magic user role as well? In fact, if you do away with the feat restrictions all together you end up with a Combat option and a Skill option that cover everything, no need for an Adept at all.

Or go the CoC d20 route and simply have an Offensive and a Defensive role, both of which can acquire Arcana.

 

[Skywalker]

Again to steal from d20 Modern jargon, the Adept is an FX role, which may not work well in a non-FX modern-day setting.

Exactly right. If you have no FX in the setting then simply remove the Adept class.

It is easy to tailor the system to get different levels of FX. If you want it to be always wild, remove the Adept Role and allow the Wild Talent Feat. If you want to have low level magic, restrict the Adept Role at first level and then allow only 1 level per Expert/Warrior level taken.

I don't see this as a waste of space. The Adept Role takes up 1/2 of a space with about 10 pages for Feats and Powers. Even with low FX, these still might be useful for other things or later settings. In any case, inventing a new replacement class doesn't effect the fact that no FX the easiest thing to do is remove the FX class.

 

[Skywalker]

Or go the CoC d20 route and simply have an Offensive and a Defensive role, both of which can acquire Arcana.

This is where you get to with True 20 if you remove the Adept Role. The Warrior Role (offensive) and Expert Role (defensive) where both can take the Wild Talent Feat.

 

[Ranger REG]

Exactly right. If you have no FX in the setting then simply remove the Adept class.

It is easy to tailor the system to get different levels of FX. If you want it to be always wild, remove the Adept Role and allow the Wild Talent Feat. If you want to have low level magic, restrict the Adept Role at first level and then allow only 1 level per Expert/Warrior level taken.

I don't see this as a waste of space. The Adept Role takes up 1/2 of a space with about 10 pages for Feats and Powers. Even with low FX, these still might be useful for other things or later settings. In any case, inventing a new replacement class doesn't effect the fact that no FX the easiest thing to do is remove the FX class.

Perhaps, I should be clear on my own thought about True20 Modern-Style gaming. At the base, I like the idea of having three roles, not one nor two. Granted, the Adept is an FX role, so why not replace it with a non-FX role more suited for the modern world?

* The Brain, aka Expert
* The Brawn, aka Warrior
* The Delegator, aka Leader ... a social-based role that are politicos or spiritual leaders.

In summary, don't just try to plug True20 into the modern genre, tweak it.

 

[Stormborn]

Perhaps, I should be clear on my own thought about True20 Modern-Style gaming. At the base, I like the idea of having three roles, not one nor two. Granted, the Adept is an FX role, so why not replace it with a non-FX role more suited for the modern world?

* The Brain, aka Expert
* The Brawn, aka Warrior
* The Delegator, aka Leader ... a social-based role that are politicos or spiritual leaders.

In summary, don't just try to plug True20 into the modern genre, tweak it.

I believe I come down on the Ranger's side on this. Although, to be honest, I have been playing devil's advocate through out most of this thread. I am warming to the idea of True20 for Modern, but I still think it would have to be significantly tweaked, perhpas so much so that it seems to be a second iteration of the system.

 

[GreatLemur]

Perhaps, I should be clear on my own thought about True20 Modern-Style gaming. At the base, I like the idea of having three roles, not one nor two. Granted, the Adept is an FX role, so why not replace it with a non-FX role more suited for the modern world?

* The Brain, aka Expert
* The Brawn, aka Warrior
* The Delegator, aka Leader ... a social-based role that are politicos or spiritual leaders.

The only real problem with this idea is that it's utterly unnecessary. The Expert role can already be used to build pretty much perfect leader characters with lots of social and charismatic abilities. Hell, the very first True20 character I made was an Expert priest who, instead of wielding cleric-style holy magic, had bard-like crowd-manipulation feats that were linked to his Perform (oratory) skill.

If two "classes" is enough for d20 Call of Cthulhu, it's enough for modern True20.

 

[carpedavid]

Perhaps, I should be clear on my own thought about True20 Modern-Style gaming. At the base, I like the idea of having three roles, not one nor two. Granted, the Adept is an FX role, so why not replace it with a non-FX role more suited for the modern world?

* The Brain, aka Expert
* The Brawn, aka Warrior
* The Delegator, aka Leader ... a social-based role that are politicos or spiritual leaders.

In summary, don't just try to plug True20 into the modern genre, tweak it.

I think you may be missing the rationale for the three classes as they exist (or, you might just not like it). The three roles are designed to represent the three "roles" that any character might fill in a game: the magic user, the combatant, and the skill user. When you distill *any* game system down to its componet parts, you'll find that all characters are essentially one of (or a combination of) these roles.

The Expert, in particular, seems to be the one that's the most misunderstood. It's not "the brain," it's "the skill user." The skills any particular expert uses can be mental, social, or physical. The "Delegator" that you mention is simply just an expert who takes social-based skills and feats. The class really is that generic.

The Expert can cover anything from a ninja, to a scientist, to a politician. If we were to take D&D classes and "convert" them to True20, we'd see that the Rogue, the Bard, the Ranger, and the Monk are all "Experts."

Personally, I think it would be a mistake to start adding "specialized" classes to True20. People are so used to defining flavor by "class" that they miss seeing the versatility that each of the True20 roles provides. Remember that, in True20, each of the roles is, at most, a skeleton upon which you customize your own character. If you want to see a different flavor, come up with some new feats that a specific role can take.

Stormborn - I'm curious as to what you feel needs to be changed in order to make True20 fit the modern genre better. I'm not seeing it, so I'm wondering if I'm overlooking something obvious.