True20 and Modern Games

[Denaes]

From the discussion that I've seen here so far, people are simply trying to re-create a role that already exists: the Adept. Does that help to clarify?

I'm on the same page as you. I think using the Adept for such a purpose is what it's intended to do.

 

[MadBlue]

I think we're on the same page on this. You're suggesting a class that has "Special Abilities" which has a low BAB, saves, etc. There's already one class that fills that role called the Adept. If you replace the list of powers with ones more condusive to the setting you wish to play in (non-FX), then you can literally keep all of the Adept mechanics (power checks, feats to aquire powers, etc.) without creating a new class. In this case, your "Adept" would accomplish things through science instead of sorcery. The role he plays in the game would be the same.

Ah! OK. I see what you mean. That makes sense. I'd probably give the role 4 skills though, since it wouldn't be capable of the same level of power that a standard Adept would be capable of.

In a modern campaign with FX, such as psionics, the Adept would be the role to use, but a non-FX equivalent would also be appropriate in such a case. But what to call it? "Professional"? "Specialist"? Using a thesaurus doesn't help much, since "Adept" and "Expert" are synonyms.

MadBlue

 

[Kesh]

Perhaps "Savant." These are people with somewhat innate abilities to perform certain acts, rather than the Expert who has trained to do mundane, general tasks. A Savant would be able to do things that seem super-science / magical, as part of their nature.

 

[Denaes]

Perhaps "Savant." These are people with somewhat innate abilities to perform certain acts, rather than the Expert who has trained to do mundane, general tasks. A Savant would be able to do things that seem super-science / magical, as part of their nature.

You just described the Adept

 

[Denaes]

Ah! OK. I see what you mean. That makes sense. I'd probably give the role 4 skills though, since it wouldn't be capable of the same level of power that a standard Adept would be capable of.

In a modern campaign with FX, such as psionics, the Adept would be the role to use, but a non-FX equivalent would also be appropriate in such a case. But what to call it? "Professional"? "Specialist"? Using a thesaurus doesn't help much, since "Adept" and "Expert" are synonyms.

MadBlue

Why would they get extra skills? They have the same benefits as an Adept to create special weapons/items/gadgets, raise undead, heal, etc.

It seems like you're trying to make it a lot more complicated than it needs to me.

My advice is to just play the damn game and if Adepts are comming up shorted because of something you changed setting wise (like needing to have equipment to use Arcana) then toss them an extra feat to make up for it.

You don't need to call it anything different or make minute differences and pretend it's a totally different Role.

I've seen people pose ideas for multiple different Roles from Commoners to Inventors and none of them have held any water yet.

I think people are just so conditioned by D&D that each difference is a new class - and that NPCs need specific rules for creation. Because players would really care if you didn't create a Commoner using the same set of rules they had used to create their heroic characters.

 

[Ranger REG]

If you revert the Roles to Classes then it will have an impact on the rest of the True 20 System.

Is that a positive impact or a negative one? I mean what is a "Role" in True20?

 

[Denaes]

Is that a positive impact or a negative one? I mean what is a "Role" in True20?

A Role determines the source of your characters abilities:

Adept: Supernatural - internal - metaphysical. Encapsulates Magic, psionics, supernatural creatures, humans with special abilities, humans who can leverage a "magic" like powers (be it magic, psionics, inventions, super-science). A strong will is also included.

Expert: Someone who is talanted/dedicated/skilled/learned/etc. They learn things, are gifted, apply skills - be it social or bookish or nature minded.

Warrior: someone trained in martial combat, a strongman.. basically a fighter of some sort. They gain mastery over weapons (including hands/feet)

each grants access to a specific grouping of Feats as well as Save & Combat bonuses.

They cover the three possible concepts, which is why there really cannot be another type of Role without dupilation and watering everything else down.

There could be more Feats... I could see breaking up the three special categories (Expert, Supernatural & Martial) down further and having some Feats allowed only in Martial - Modern and others in Modern - Ancient...

But really the point of the game is to allow people to create the character they wish within the confines of the setting. Some settings will allow extra feats and restrict others uses.

Different Settings will allow different Backgrounds (races, species, cultures, professions, etc) as well as different Paths (kinda like a class - tells you what to take at 1st level and might modify the role a little to fit the concept).

Without even touching Paths & Backgrounds (which can change things greatly) The Roles with the selection of Feats can cover quite a wide array of ground. Of course, Changing roles may be needed to get exactly what you want. ie, you wouldn't take 10 levels of Adept if you only wanted 2 powers.

Adept:Druid, Martial Artist, Wizard, Elementalist, Animist, Priest, Cleric, Mad Scientist, Genius, Cyborg, Demon, etc

Expert:Detective, Thief, Rogue, Hunter, Martial Artist, Diplomat, Con-man, Minstral/Musician, poet, artist, Scholar, Technician, Mechanic, Clerk, Ponce, Cop, Ninja, etc

Warrior:Soldier, gunslinger, Fighter, Cop, Demon, Cyborg, samurai, etc

Now where I can see the game expanding in customization is providing an Anti-Feat. You take them at times when it makes sense for your character and it allows another Feat selection. That would actually solve peoples problems of "I'm creating a hero, but why does he have to have this much combat ability!? I need a hero who is inept at combat!"

 

[MadBlue]

Why would they get extra skills? They have the same benefits as an Adept to create special weapons/items/gadgets, raise undead, heal, etc.

Granted the Adept would work well for a mad scientist type character, but most of the Arcana effects couldn't be simulated by a more mundane scientist or doctor, even with treating scientific breakthroughs, robotics, curing diseases and reviving the dead as Arcana.

It seems like you're trying to make it a lot more complicated than it needs to me.

My advice is to just play the damn game and if Adepts are comming up shorted because of something you changed setting wise (like needing to have equipment to use Arcana) then toss them an extra feat to make up for it.

Actually, in the case of a mad scientist or Q type character, I would require them to use Imbue Item to create the effects. They wouldn't be able to create a bolt of electricity with Elemental Strike just by concentrating, they'd have to build a weapon or other machine that does it. Similarly, they'd need to create potions or syringes full of Cure Disease or Cure Poison. They couldn't cast them on the fly. It would make the Adept more like the Artificer than the Wizard.

If it were a case of saying "they have the Arcana, but they cast it through particular equipment", then what happens when someone else gets hold of the equipment? Is it a useless piece of junk unless it's in the Adept's hands? If a syringe is essentially being treated as a material focus for the Cure Disease Arcana, then the Adept has a chance of becoming fatigued after administering a shot to someone, which doesn't make sense to me, considering a character can swing a sword for a minute without becoming fatigued.

Not being able to cast Arcana on the fly is a drawback that would merit other benefits. More Skills make sense because the character is, essentially, a scientist, doctor, inventor, etc. They'd be taking Various Craft and Knowledge skills, Heal, Computers and Disable Device, not Concentration.

MadBlue

 

[Denaes]

Granted the Adept would work well for a mad scientist type character, but most of the Arcana effects couldn't be simulated by a more mundane scientist or doctor, even with treating scientific breakthroughs, robotics, curing diseases and reviving the dead as Arcana.

Whatever the GM will allow as a breakthrough or ability in the setting, will be allowed. There simply cannot be another way.

This goes for SFX via mechanics, psionics, magic, priestly powers, supernatural abilities, etc.

I can explain the use of any of these abilities fairly easily in a Modern - no magic/supernatural - game in which they would be allowed.

Yeah, it's going to be pulpy and not in accordance with real life. If you want that you just don't allow them. Or allow what would make sense.

Actually, in the case of a mad scientist or Q type character, I would require them to use Imbue Item to create the effects. They wouldn't be able to create a bolt of electricity with Elemental Strike just by concentrating, they'd have to build a weapon or other machine that does it.

Or they might know how to rig wall sockets to shoot electricity or other Knowedgable use.

In the case of Elemental Strike & Control you're right that you wouldn't be able to "non-supernaturally" (in some sense) just do these things. But you can shift the focus to knowledge of how to do such things. Believe it or not, in the modern world there is electricity all over the place. Someone who has a knack for manipulating and flinging it will be at no shortage of using their knowledge.

Similarly, they'd need to create potions or syringes full of Cure Disease or Cure Poison.

They could just be doctors and have the power represent their greater knowledge over medicine, the human body and curing it. It doesn't have to be a super elixer or whatnot - though most likely a cure for a disease would be injected or somehow injested.

They couldn't cast them on the fly. It would make the Adept more like the Artificer than the Wizard.

They would be granted the knowledge to use and manipulate their abilities and follow the constraints of the game reality.

Just because you're a super doctor doesn't mean you look at someone and they're healed. You still diagnose and treat them just like normal healing... only you're much better at it.

If it were a case of saying "they have the Arcana, but they cast it through particular equipment", then what happens when someone else gets hold of the equipment? Is it a useless piece of junk unless it's in the Adept's hands?

Possibly. Depends on what the GM is going for by placing that restriction.

If a syringe is essentially being treated as a material focus for the Cure Disease Arcana, then the Adept has a chance of becoming fatigued after administering a shot to someone, which doesn't make sense to me, considering a character can swing a sword for a minute without becoming fatigued.

Well if you're not letting Cure Disease be used as a supernatural power on the fly and requiring that a proper disease lab be set up and the doctor is doing doctor things, you wouldn't use the fatiguing element of it.

You're altering it to make it weaker and not as useful, so you can drop the restriction which doesn't make sense in the new application of the power.

And yes, if someone creates a cure for a disease and puts it into a syringe, anyone can use it as well as they can use any syringe.

Not being able to cast Arcana on the fly is a drawback that would merit other benefits.

You would adjust the Arcana so they make sense and are balanced in their own right if possible - but yeah, if you basically cripple the Arcane abilities as Feats, you should provide another bonus feat or two.

More Skills make sense because the character is, essentially, a scientist, doctor, inventor, etc. They'd be taking Various Craft and Knowledge skills, Heal, Computers and Disable Device, not Concentration.

No, the Role is Adept, not Mad Scientist. Maybe the backgrounds you create for your setting, like "Mad Scientist" or "Doctor" might have some extra skills in there. You're not creating a class.There arn't classes in True20.

The point of the Roles in True20 (and D&D for that matter) is to distill the character creation process down to it's base elements of what power the character is accessing: SFX, Skills or Fighting Ability. Thats it.

If your character concept is SFX with Skills you can either be Expert and chose Wild Talant or choose Adept and that Feat that gives you 2 more skills.

If you start creating "Roles" (really classes is what you're talking about when you're defining how to treat it for the specific case of one character concept) that are catered to a specific concept, you'll soon have a long list of them. The point of True20 is that you don't need them. They choose Feats to define what they can do.

A doctor who can great cures is just a higher level Expert - maybe taking some extra Skill Focuses in Heal.

A doctor who can do SFX cures (beyond the tech level of the game or a totally alternate method) would be an Expert with medical skills and Wild Talant: Cure or maybe a rank of Adept in there somewere.

You can do it all pretty easily in this system. True, you might need more Feats - but you don't need more Roles or to really modify them.

Backgrounds is the other way to handle things and can be pretty damned sweet. They can give access to Feats not normally allowed or maybe bonuses to skills or other alternate equivilent abilities.

Otherwise you could use Paths to modify roles also - which is exactly what you're talking about doing. In Blue Rose they have the Path for Thief. They told you which Feats to get at first level, which two saves were the "Better" Saves - but they didn't! They gave you Dex. A special note was made that instead of his 2nd save, he got a bonus to dodge or something.

Exceptions can be made on a campaign level between Paths & Backgrounds and just using Expert & Warriors you can have a Diplomat, Thief, Scientist, Mechanic, etc that can all start quite different and might have slight alterations if needed to the Role of Expert. Maybe access to a SFX/Arcana Feat, maybe access to a unique Feat, maybe a bonus to skills, etc.

Heck, you can even layer on multiple levels of backgrounds: Race, Culture, Occupation (which could be Path instead)... A character raised in the city might have different bonuses than a country bumpkin or someone raised in the hood vs suburbia.

 

[carpedavid]

Otherwise you could use Paths to modify roles also - which is exactly what you're talking about doing. In Blue Rose they have the Path for Thief. They told you which Feats to get at first level, which two saves were the "Better" Saves - but they didn't! They gave you Dex. A special note was made that instead of his 2nd save, he got a bonus to dodge or something.

Actually, this is a standard option for all Experts in Blue Rose. You can choose one good save and get a +1 bonus to Dodge instead of two good saves. I'd advise against granting exceptions on a path-by-path basis, since they're intended to represent what a typical example of that archetype would be. They're not supposed to be "mini-classes."

If you want to grant an exception, like the one above, make it at the role level. For example, in the setting that I'm developing right now for the setting search, I'm granting the following exception to Experts:

"Because of the focus on unarmed and unarmored combat in Tanayari, characters that take their first level in Expert may choose to take the Canny Dodge feat instead of Armor Training (light)."

It makes sense for the setting, but doesn't in any way change the function of the Expert role.