D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Asisreo]

It doesn't have to carry that burden, but it does carry that burden. Over half the TTRPG market plays one game, and the hundreds of other games divide up the rest of the base. It's much easier to find games and support if D&D is the type of game you prefer, so obviously people want to shift D&D into the modes of play they like.

Wouldn't it be better if we, as a community, brought the other systems to people's attention? I don't like Pathfinder personally, but I've introduced it to people that now play it weekly. Call of Cthulu was my first TTRPG that I expanded out of D&D for and its one of my favorite systems.

If we keep putting the emphasis on D&D, won't we just obscure the other systems that really should be getting the attention they deserve?

It might even bring people who think they dislike TTRPG's into the game because now they work with technology and body-modifications rather than spells and swords and they think its awesome.

 

[TwoSix]

Wouldn't it be better if we, as a community, brought the other systems to people's attention? I don't like Pathfinder personally, but I've introduced it to people that now play it weekly. Call of Cthulu was my first TTRPG that I expanded out of D&D for and its one of my favorite systems.

If we keep putting the emphasis on D&D, won't we just obscure the other systems that really should be getting the attention they deserve?

It might even bring people who think they dislike TTRPG's into the game because now they work with technology and body-modifications rather than spells and swords and they think its awesome.

I can and do play other systems, but that doesn't change D&D being the most impactful game on the market. What playstyles it supports matters in a way that other systems don't.

 

[Minigiant]

Goading attacks should have been a basic game action: Whenever you hit a creature with a melee attack, you should be able to goad them with a bonus action if you share a language. Then you give the Fighter the ability to do it without a bonus action and as long as the target has A language (no need to share it with them).

Aka marking?

 

[Mind of tempest]

I disagree. The squeaky wheel gets the oil and it is an incredibly bad look when the same forum where martials and casters are seen as a monumental problem is the same forum where the sexualization of bikini woman armor in art isn't really that big of a deal. Some people are still upset about that, by the way.

And it doesn't have to be about social justice, the basic mechanics themselves are broken. Simulacrum needs a heavy nerf. Some magic items break the game in ways a DM would be unable to predict. The guidance on creating adventures in the DMG could use some more work. But right now, it seems like the forum finds martials much more important than any of these.

we change topic and obsession about once a week so just wait for this to burn out if you want to talk about something else, I am waiting for the weekend for a review of my custom race maybe Sunday would be a good day for it? discussing social things along with busted magic items?

They scale in damage but not in applicability. In a world like D&D, there SHOULD be martial techniques designed to take on the kind of threat a higher level Fighter encounters. At higher levels, Tripping Attack should no longer be limited by the basic rule of 'the creature must be no larger than 1 size more than you', as an exemple, or maybe it disables a creature's flight speed for a certain amount of time.

Disarming Attack is nice when you're facing bandits in the countryside, but once you're fighting Abominations from the Far Realm that's not gonna be particularly useful.

I think Casters SHOULD suffer more

I blame Wizard players

Now, this is just a theory, but I see a very clear through line between certain styles of old school DnD and the olden days 'Jock VS Nerd' mentalities. The Jock (the Fighter) and the Bad Kid (the Rogue) should bow to the truly superior person: the Nerd (The Wizard). A lot of people have absorbed this aspect of old DnD without really thinking of it in those terms. It was just how DnD was to them.

It's known that when 4e was being designed, the lead designer had to fight the team so they wouldn't make the Wizard more powerful than the other class. Wizard fans probably won't come out and say it outright (some may) but they just want their class to be the Golden Boy that shines brighter than other and gets all the accolades. And that they deserve respect for playing that Wizard because it's an ADVANCED class. It's not easy and you need to be SMART to play it well.

Basically there's a vision that say 'Magic is COOL! It's so rad and it's the best thing ever! But it's also really complicated and it's for MASTERS! If you use Magic, which is cool, well, then you yourself are cool."

And another vision that say "Man, playing a hero is COOL. Kicking butt and saving people is COOL and being COOL is FUN!"

It's "You gotta earn your COOL!" vs "Everybody gets COOL"

why do so many want the casters to suffer? it is bad for our image.

Wouldn't it be better if we, as a community, brought the other systems to people's attention? I don't like Pathfinder personally, but I've introduced it to people that now play it weekly. Call of Cthulu was my first TTRPG that I expanded out of D&D for and its one of my favorite systems.

If we keep putting the emphasis on D&D, won't we just obscure the other systems that really should be getting the attention they deserve?

It might even bring people who think they dislike TTRPG's into the game because now they work with technology and body-modifications rather than spells and swords and they think its awesome.

that is a fair point but that is again another thread topic you got a plan on how to get other people to want to play something other than dnd?

 

[Gammadoodler]

I disagree. The squeaky wheel gets the oil and it is an incredibly bad look when the same forum where martials and casters are seen as a monumental problem is the same forum where the sexualization of bikini woman armor in art isn't really that big of a deal. Some people are still upset about that, by the way.

And it doesn't have to be about social justice, the basic mechanics themselves are broken. Simulacrum needs a heavy nerf. Some magic items break the game in ways a DM would be unable to predict. The guidance on creating adventures in the DMG could use some more work. But right now, it seems like the forum finds martials much more important than any of these.

If that's how you feel, then why start the thread? And why continue to participate?

"I really want to understand this and engage in open discourse about it...so much so that i will create my own new thread about it"

And

"I think this discussion is a waste of time and energy that distracts from the real issues"

Seem like contradictory motivations to me.

 

[Minigiant]

Can someone sum up with the last 10 pages were about. I really have lost track of this conversation

Basically people discussing whether a fighter can be a great melee and great ranged attacker at pre11th level.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Wouldn't it be better if we, as a community, brought the other systems to people's attention? I don't like Pathfinder personally, but I've introduced it to people that now play it weekly. Call of Cthulu was my first TTRPG that I expanded out of D&D for and its one of my favorite systems.

If we keep putting the emphasis on D&D, won't we just obscure the other systems that really should be getting the attention they deserve?

It might even bring people who think they dislike TTRPG's into the game because now they work with technology and body-modifications rather than spells and swords and they think its awesome.

1) This is the D&D forum. We're gonna talk D&D

2) 'Go play another game' is historically how people have tried to punch dissenters out of the community for being threats to 'tradition'.

 

[Minigiant]

Here's the thing.

We cannot have a "simple fighter" that does what a fully fledged veteran D&D fan wants.

A "simple fighter for noobs" just makes us vets unhappy as it forces a fighter to had to choose between melee, ranged, and out of combat power.

 

[FrogReaver]

2) 'Go play another game' is historically how people have tried to punch dissenters out of the community for being threats to 'tradition'.

hmmm. D&d themed monopoly. Or would it be monopoly themes d&d.

 

[FrogReaver]

Here's the thing.

We cannot have a "simple fighter" that does what a fully fledged veteran D&D fan wants.

A "simple fighter for noobs" just makes us vets unhappy as it forces a fighter to had to choose between melee, ranged, and out of combat power.

Presumably a simple fighter could be good at melee combat, ranged, exploration and social all at once.