D&D 5E (2014) Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[TheSword]

Is it me or is. Bigby’s hand a really solid bonus action damage spell at higher levels… scaling to 10d8 as a bonus action by level 8. Dealing Force damage. With spell attack bonus. Plus it gives you the defensive options as alternatives while you need them. I like that!

 

[Mort]

By level 11 a Wizard can cast Animate Objects four times per day, so Fighter boi might be in for a challenge.

Animate objects is SO situation dependent. In the right conditions - it's a devastating spell. But there can be vast swaths of time where there is no opportunity/point in casting it! I suppose the wizard can carry around a bag of knives (10+) and that could get pretty nasty.

 

[FrogReaver]

Shouldn't be a problem as long as both only get one feat.

As I just explained. That’s not even needed. If you are worried about the feat discrepancy from custom lineage just assume the character is a non custom lineage at character level 12. Hardly anything changes. Definitely not enough to invalidate the exercise.

 

[tetrasodium]

Is it me or is. Bigby’s hand a really solid bonus action damage spell at higher levels… scaling to 10d8 as a bonus action by level 8. Dealing Force damage. With spell attack bonus. Plus it gives you the defensive options as alternatives while you need them. I like that!

It depends on if the GM rules magic resistance applies to the grapple save or uses a legendary resist after maybe failing. With a level 5 slot it's only 2d6+casting mod with an extra 2d6 per slot level above 5. I've seen players think it was going to be a serious win button only to have it go over as kinda meh compared to something like web. At the levels that 5th level & higher slots are being thrown around 2d6+5 (avg12) is one point shy of what the fighter's getting on one swing with gwm & a +1 greatsword with 1-3 more swings. It might make a wizard feel good, but alongside things like GWM/SS or agonizing repelling blast it's not especially noteworthy,

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think alot depends on whether you are a caster or a martial.

FWIW, the class hasn't mattered at all in this respect. I read a lot on the forum about people rushing to a 20 stat, but IME the extra +1 here or there isn't worth the other benefits feats typically grant. YMMV, of course.

 

[TheSword]

Animate objects is SO situation dependent. In the right conditions - it's a devastating spell. But there can be vast swaths of time where there is no opportunity/point in casting it! I suppose the wizard can carry around a bag of knives (10+) and that could get pretty nasty.

Well it is until you come up against something with an area attack, or resistance/immunity to non-magical weapons, or a very high AC.

 

[FrogReaver]

While we await the final set of assumptions that go into the this comparison it might be interesting to talk about expected results.

I expect that with low to no investment in feats and magic items the wizard comes out ahead. I expect that with moderate feat and magic items they will be really close. I expect that with strong magic weapons and feats that the fighter will be substantially better at damage.

Outside the exercise I expect that as the PCs approach level 20 that the wizard would start to catch up and eventually overtake the fighter regardless of what the fighter does.

 

[Mort]

It depends on if the GM rules magic resistance applies to the grapple save or uses a legendary resist after maybe failing. With a level 5 slot it's only 2d6+casting mod with an extra 2d6 per slot level above 5. I've seen players think it was going to be a serious win button only to have it go over as kinda meh compared to something like web. At the levels that 5th level & higher slots are being thrown around 2d6+5 (avg12) is one point shy of what the fighter's getting on one swing with gwm & a +1 greatsword with 1-3 more swings. It might make a wizard feel good, but alongside things like GWM/SS or agonizing repelling blast it's not especially noteworthy,

2d6+5 is only if the target is being grappled, which also makes it's movement 0 - a decent effect.

Assuming the hand just punches damages is 4d8 - avg. 18. Not super amazing, but not bad either.

Plus the hand has several effects it can do, making it decently versatile - even outside of combat in a pinch.

And that's really the point. Damage is fine, if not spectacular but it's really versatile too. Kind of like the wizard!

 

[TheSword]

It depends on if the GM rules magic resistance applies to the grapple save or uses a legendary resist after maybe failing. With a level 5 slot it's only 2d6+casting mod with an extra 2d6 per slot level above 5. I've seen players think it was going to be a serious win button only to have it go over as kinda meh compared to something like web. At the levels that 5th level & higher slots are being thrown around 2d6+5 (avg12) is one point shy of what the fighter's getting on one swing with gwm & a +1 greatsword with 1-3 more swings. It might make a wizard feel good, but alongside things like GWM/SS or agonizing repelling blast it's not especially noteworthy,

That would be harsh! It’s pretty explicitly an opposed check rather than a save. I was thinking more that Clenched fist doing 4d8 force and scaling by 2d8 per level. I’ve not seen a damaging spell in 5e scale by 2d8 per level. Albeit starts relatively high at 5th level.

 

[Mort]

Well it is until you come up against something with an area attack, or resistance/immunity to non-magical weapons, or a very high AC.

Hence me saying that there are vast swaths of time where it's completely pointless/useless. It's REALLY campaign/DM dependent. Because it depends both on setting AND on the monsters/opponents the DM favors.