Trying to make Toughness not such a junk feat
- Thread starter Grog
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pyk
First Post
Ummm, no. I said Improved Initiative is not important when both side's got it. Initiative is important, but only for the first round. After the first round, somebody is always going before someone else, so how is Initative SOOO important then?
Waitaminiute. Are we still talking about Rogues, here? Cause if we are, then the rogue's gonna have a goddawful Dex, and even with Improved Initiative you ain't gonna beat his Init. He doesn't have, and you get, then possibly you could beat the rogue. But, only if you give up the high DCs to spells by pumping your Dex, just like he did.
You seem to get it, but still drift into somewhere else now and then. Initiative measn something, at all levels, in fact, but only at the start of combat. Improved Initiative is only going to get you anywhere at low levels, unless you're in a class that pumps up Dex as routine. Even then, it becomes inconsequential at high levels.
Waitaminiute. Are we still talking about Rogues, here? Cause if we are, then the rogue's gonna have a goddawful Dex, and even with Improved Initiative you ain't gonna beat his Init. He doesn't have, and you get, then possibly you could beat the rogue. But, only if you give up the high DCs to spells by pumping your Dex, just like he did.
You seem to get it, but still drift into somewhere else now and then. Initiative measn something, at all levels, in fact, but only at the start of combat. Improved Initiative is only going to get you anywhere at low levels, unless you're in a class that pumps up Dex as routine. Even then, it becomes inconsequential at high levels.
For toughness I use the +1hp/hd (min 2) and I dont limit how many times you take it. If for some reason the character wants to spend 5 feats on it to just gain hp and not any other feats that provide tactics/abilities/whatever in order to gain some cool factor of being able to take extra hits what is the problem? They have given up a lot of options just to do this, let them feel it was worth it for them and enjoy it.
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pyk said:
I fully appreciate that Improved Initiative is only useful in the first round of combat- indeed, only in the first action of combat. After that, the 'turn' merely alternates.
However, the ability to 'strike first' is not to be underestimated. As I've been pointing out, the ability to Finger of Death your opponent first before he Finger of Deaths (?) you is a crucial one. For rogues, initiative is pivotal to there chances of sneak attack. Fighters can smack down a wizard before he dominates them. And so on.
As for the notion of the rogue still beating you on Dex, here there seems to be some confusion. It may well be the case that you will have a lower initiative in absolute terms than the rogue. However, Improved Initiative will always increase your chances, even if it is from (say) 10% to 30%. For example, if you're a mage with 14 Dex against a rogue with 24 Dex, the mage has only an 30% chance of winning. If he takes Improved Initiative, his chances go up to 46.5%, quite a bit better. If the rogue had taken Improved Initiative and the mage had not, the mage would only have a 17.5% chance of winning. If both took it, it would be 30%. In other words, whoever takes it, at whatever stage, their chances of winning are increased, even if the odds are still on the rogue.
I just changed the feat entirely. Instead of adding x number of hit points, I allow the player to roll the next higher hit die type. For example, a wizard with the Toughness feat rolls a d6 instead of a d4. A fighter with the Toughness feat rolls a d12 instead of a d10. A barbarian, or any other class that rolls a d12 for hit points, rolls a d8 and a d6 and adds them together.
Just wanted to add that I've seen another alternate to the standard Toughness feat. That alternate allowed the players to roll their hit die twice and choose the larger.
Just wanted to add that I've seen another alternate to the standard Toughness feat. That alternate allowed the players to roll their hit die twice and choose the larger.
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