D&D 4E Trying to run 4E before its release?

[BradfordFerguson]

Cleric Spell List--Cut Down to Size

CLERIC SPELL LIST (draft)


Some thoughts:
* Next to each section head is two numbers in parenthesis. The first # is the current # of spells at that level (using my crazy modifications), the second # is the # of cleric spells at that level in the PHB.
* I got rid of most of the following: divination ("distant" gods), summoning, save or die, alignment spells, ability/level drain, restoration, symbols/glyphs, consecrate/hallow, truth.
* It's ridiculous how many spells there are JUST in the PHB. Wow!
* Divine Gift, 2nd level, your stat buff spell that you don't have to memorize the stat in advance, huzzah!
* Magic Weapon, 1st level, need to keep in mind that +stat and +5 weapons won't be in the game (though a flaming longsword might), so spells that do this should be toned down/disallowed.
* Remove Condition, 3rd level, covers disease/curse/blind, huzzah!
* 3rd level, You could even combine the 3 bestow "malediction" spells into 1 spell with 3 options (but not 2 different save types).
* 4th level, kinda lame level, somewhat the diplomacy level with comprehend languages (bumped all the way from 1st level! Crazy!) and tongues. Calm Emotions is a nutty spell, so I moved it up here to 4th level (I may even get rid of it and put it solely on the bard's list). Poison needs to be rewritten if I'm gonna do away with ability drain. MAYBE I should drop Divine Power back here... I just have problems with the cleric being able to be the best fighter in the group!
* 5th level, Water Walk and Water Breathing moved all the way here! Seems more appropriate for a 9th level character to be doing.
* 6th level, with Blade Barrier here, I nixed the symmetry with Heal/Harm and bumped Harm to 7th level. With Heal being 6th level and a lack of a buff spell at 7th level, I also bumped Heroe's Feast to 7th level. Air Walk is here so I will probably bump the wizard's Fly spell up in levels but keep Fly at 5th level or lower.


0-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or object.
Light: Object shines like a torch.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.


1ST-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS (12/25)
Bless: Allies gain +1 on attack rolls.
Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 3 rounds.
Command: One subject obeys selected command for 1 round.
Cure Light Wounds: Cures 4 HP +1/level (max +5).
Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Doom: One subject takes –2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks. duration: encounter, counter: fear removal.
Inflict Light Wounds: Touch deals 4 damage +1/level (max +5).
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you.
Remove Fear: Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per four levels.
Sanctuary: Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Shield of Faith: Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.


2ND-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS (11/32)
Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 9 HP +1/level (max +10).
Darkness: 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Divine Gift: Subject gains +4 to Con or Str or Wis or Cha for encounter.
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Inflict Moderate Wounds: Touch attack, 9 damage +1/level (max +10).
Remove Paralysis: Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Shield Other F: You take half of subject’s damage.
Silence: Negates sound in 20-ft. radius.
Spiritual Weapon: Magic weapon attacks on its own.


3RD-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS (12/31)
Bestow Curse: –6 to an ability score; –4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action.
Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blinded or deafened.
Contagion: Infects subject with chosen disease.
Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 13 HP +1/level (max +15).
Daylight: 60-ft. radius of bright light.
Deeper Darkness: Object sheds supernatural shadow in 60-ft. radius.
Dispel Magic: Cancels spells and magical effects.
Inflict Serious Wounds: Touch attack, 13 damage +1/level (max +15).
Invisibility Purge: Dispels invisibility within 5 ft./level.
Prayer: Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies –1 penalty.
Remove Condition: Cures normal or magical conditions. (blindness/curse/deafness/disease)
Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels damage, more against undead.


4TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS (12/23)
Calm Emotions: Calms creatures, negating emotion effects.
Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
Cure Critical Wounds: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement.
Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to native plane.
Freedom of Movement: Subject moves normally despite impediments.
Inflict Critical Wounds: Touch attack, 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Neutralize Poison: Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Poison: Touch deals 1d10 Con damage, repeats in 1 min.
Sending: Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Tongues: Speak any language.


5TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS (12/24)
Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.
Command, Greater: As command, but affects one subject/level.
Cure Light Wounds, Mass: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Disrupting Weapon: Melee weapon destroys undead.
Divine Power: You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level.
Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass: Deals 1d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Raise Dead M: Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
Spell Resistance: Subject gains SR 12 + level.
True Seeing M: Lets you see all things as they really are.
Water Breathing: Subjects can breathe underwater.
Water Walk: Subject treads on water as if solid.


6TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS (12/26)
Air Walk: Subject treads on air as if solid (climb at 45-degree angle).
Antilife Shell: 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures.
Banishment: Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
Divine Gift, Mass: All allies within 30’ gain +4 to Con or Str or Wis or Cha for encounter.
Blade Barrier: Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
Forbiddance M: Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment.
Heal: Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass: Deals 2d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
Word of Recall: Teleports you back to designated place.


7TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS (10/18)
Control Weather: Changes weather in local area.
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Geas/Quest: As lesser geas, plus it affects any creature.
Harm: Deals 10 points/level damage to target.
Heroes’ Feast: Food for one creature/level cures and grants combat bonuses.
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass: Deals 3d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Refuge M: Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Repulsion: Creatures can’t approach you.
Resurrection M: Fully restore dead subject.


8TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS (8/17)
Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
Create Greater Undead M: Create shadows, wraiths, spectres, or devourers.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Dimensional Lock: Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level.
Discern Location: Reveals exact location of creature or object.
Earthquake: Intense tremor shakes 80-ft.-radius.
Fire Storm: Deals 1d6/level fire damage.
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass: Deals 4d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.


9TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS (8/11)
Astral Projection M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
Etherealness: Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions.
Gate X: Connects two planes for travel or summoning.
Heal, Mass: As heal, but with several subjects.
Miracle X: Requests a deity’s intercession.
Soul Bind F: Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.
Storm of Vengeance: Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.
True Resurrection M: As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.

 

[BradfordFerguson]

Cleric 6
Str 16 +3 (gained +2 STR @ level 2)
Dex 10
Con 14 +2
Int 10
Wis 18 +4 (gained +2 WIS @ level 4)
Cha 14 +2

HP: 45 Bloodied: 22 (1/2 HP total)
AC: 23 (+4 vs giants?)
Init: 0, Move: 20'

Fort: 7, Refex: 3, Will: 9

ATTACK
full attack: +10 hit, 9 damage, x3 crit (masterwork warhammer)

SPECIAL
Combat Caster: auto success combat casting
Turn Undead x/day
Domain Specials?
Dwarf Specials?


SPELLS
3rd: 4/day: Bestow Curse, Dispel Magic, Remove Condition, Cure Serious Wounds 19 HP.
2nd: 5/day: Divine Gift, Resist Energy, Silence, Cure Moderate Wounds 15HP.
1st: 5/encounter: Divine Favor, Doom, Sanctuary, Cure Light Wounds 9HP.


SKILLS (trained)
Piety +12 (know: religion, heal, spellcraft)
Diplomacy +10


EQUIPMENT
half-plate? (whatever is +7), masterwork warhammer, large steel shield
(unfinished)


THOUGHTS: Maybe I should let the player pick a 1st-level spell that could be cast at will? Hmmm.

After a night's sleep... The sample cleric feels a bit "safe" to me. The way I have set up spell use still feels "Vancian" to me. Nothing really screams cool, fun, AWESOME to me.

I wonder if a cleric's spells should be set up similar to a sorcerer's. Here's how I would do it: each game session, the player can choose 3 spells from each level that they want to be able to cast and then they can cast any combo of those spells X times per day. The player would also be able to change spells if they visited a temple. Their choice would still be limited by my (above) cleric spell list that eliminated over 110 spells from the list.

So I'm editing the post!

I still need to alter the presentation of the spells section. I may add spell cards that the player can reference without need of the PHB. In addition, spells will be rewritten so that they will require a minimum number of rolls (and the players will be doing the rolling).

 

[BradfordFerguson]

Any thoughts?

 

[BradfordFerguson]

I've made spell lists for the bard, sorcerer, and wizard. reduced each spell list to about 12 spells per level. bards are charmers and illusionists. sorcerers are more elementalists/blasters. wizards are more into runes/glyphs and walls and battlefield control.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

try to do following:

barbarian taunt:
at will: charisma vs will: if target doesn´t attack you, it gets -4 to hit.

Cleric spells:
per day: chose any 4 Level 3 or less spells
per encounter: chose any 5 Level 2 or less spells
at will: chose any 5 Level one or Less spells

Rituals: all spells with material components are now rituals which don´t have to be memorized.

 

[Lhorgrim]

Ok, how does the player of the barbarian in T&T or C&C have more options than, "I rage." or "I power attack." ...?

I don't want to derail the thread, and I'm no C&C expert, but I think I can give an answer to this. I'm not saying one system is better than the other. Just trying to answer the question.

C&C uses the Siege Engine mechanic and that allows you to try almost any action with a check against a specific ability score and your level. The DM (Castle Keeper in C&C) sets a target number for the action and adjudicates the results of the check. The target number does have a formula, but the CK has to use judgement in some situations.

You are really only limited by your imagination on manuevers to attempt.

The disconnect between C&C and D&D seems to be that the DM(CK) determines the outcomes in C&C, and the outcomes are more proscribed by the books (most of the time) for D&D.

I'm really interested in seeing 4E myself. If it can streamline the game and fix a few other issues I have with 3.X I will happily buy the books.

 

[BradfordFerguson]

(Looks like from the 4E Pit Fiend preview that HP progression will be redone because the Pit Fiend only does a double attack for a max of something like 30 damage... I'm not prepared to do that overhaul in prep for the 4E release.)

My system involves single attack rolls and average damage...

I did a short playtest of what I've come up with (levelling progressions, spell lists) and things seemed to go well. The barbarian dealt a ton of damage at 6th level and this startled the players a bit (esp since we were doing single attack roll AND average damage), but people didn't realize that the barbarian normally has two attacks at 6th level while none of the other characters did. The barbarian and rogue at 6th level were very similar as far as damage output when they were both flanking an opponent. On a hit, the halfling rogue with TWF does 20 damage (two weapons + sneak attack), and the barbarian, if raging does 20 damage (one weapon).

The system uses a single attack roll (10th level and under), so where the player under regular d20 rules would normally roll two dice, my system assumes that on a "hit" that the character is hitting between 1 & 2 times on a single die roll. For d20 this rogue's average damage on a single hit is 14, and on a true double hit would be 27. So, my system is basically saying that the 6th level rogue is hitting 1.5 times on each TWF full attack.

It is about the same for the barbarian.

I don't think I will stick to a single attack roll for all characters because things get a little crazy at higher levels. At 20th level a rogue's single sneak attack hit would be 35+4+5=44 damage, if it is assumed the 20th level rogue hits twice on a single roll (instead of twice on three iterative attacks) and the rogue is using two weapons, then a single roll hit would mean 176 damage, and a single roll miss would mean 0 damage. That's a bit extreme.

Not only do I not want my players to turn the tide of a battle so easily; I also do not want the monsters/opponents to turn a battle so quickly.

At 20th level, I think I will have the flanking rogue roll 4 times, doing 44 damage on a hit. The first two rolls would be at their attack roll -2 for TWF. The second two rolls would be at their attack roll -2 for TWF and -5 for iterative penalty.

At 20th level, the two-handed weapon barbarian is not quite as devastating, but he has many more HP, and has a higher attack roll. W/single roll, I'm assuming the barbarian hits 3 times (if I remember right), doing 5 (magic weapon adj) +14 (str bonus x1.5) +4 (rage) +6 (weapon dice) = 29 damage with each weapon strike or 87 damage on a "hit" roll (hit=3 hits). A x3 crit would be 261 damage, so I think I will break the barbarians attack rolls into two rolls at 20th level (and probably before that, maybe starting at 10th level).

TWF rogue is certainly vicious... but definitely more vulnerable.

Note to self, damage chart may not be multiplying the "magic weapon adj", make adjustments.

 

[Steely Dan]

-Critical rule (no threat range or confirmation, max damage)

-Withdraw is a move action (half speed)

-Charge is a standard action (2.0 DDM charge rules)

-No 5 ft. step

-Half character level as bonus to damage

-No iterative attacks (replaced with feats such as Double Attack, Triple Attack, Cleave, Whirlwind Attack etc)

-Saves become Defences = 10 + half character level + class bonus (fighter +2 to Fort, bard +2 to Ref and Will etc) + ability modifier

-AC = 10 + half character level + Dex + armour + shield (no amulets of natural armour or rings of deflection)

-No flat-footed AC, instead grant opponent combat advantage (+2 to hit)

-2 x Str bonus when wielding a weapon 2-handed

-1 x Str on damage with off-hand

-Buff spells last only the encounter

-Concealment -2 to hit.

-Total concealment -5 to hit

-Any -4 modifier (shooting into melee, large size grapple bonus, Mobility AC bonus ect) is -5

-No DC's for spells, replaced with magic attacks (vs. Defence) = + Half character level + ability modifier

-Second Wind

-No absolutes (fire immunity becomes resist fire of a number appropriate to the creature’s power, and immune poison = +10 to Fort Defenc vs. poison etc)

-Per encounter magic and psionic system

-Saga Skill system

 

[adamda]

I was thinking of begging my DM to allow me to cut down on druid spells. Already am using the PH2 Shapeshift variant, but I want the 4e per encounter/at will system in place. So I was thinking of something along the lines of this:

At 1st level and every other level, two powers from these categories:

Life: Healing, buffs
Primal: Elemental damage and manipulation
Warding: Protection effects, and obscurement

You can choose to make them at will powers (very weak), per encounter (medium power), or per day (high power).

So at first level I might pick at will healing (standard action, 2 hp), per encounter warding (standard action, +2 AC to self and allies). At third level, a per day primal (swift action, 2d6 energy aura) and a per encounter healing (swift action, 10 hp). At 5th level, an at will warding (standard action, energy resistance 5 until beginning of next turn for all allies) and a per day heal (standard action, 20hp), and so on.

It would be better to do it in a talent tree fashion, but can't think of a good way to do that off the top of my head.

 

[BradfordFerguson]

If a player in my campaign (with the stream-lined rules) wanted to play a druid, here's what I would do... reduce the spells on the spell list to 12 per level, max. For a 6th level druid, I do something like: allow 5 1st-levels per encounter and you would have to narrow your choices down to 4, 4 2nd-level per day with choice of 3, 3 3rd-level per day with choice of 2. In order to change your spells, you would have to visit a grove and/or spend one full day outdoors away from any road, built structure, etc.