Tumble and Charge

[Zen]

Can a character tumble as part of a charge action to avoid AoO he may provoke during his move? Say he begins the charge in a threatened square and spends two squares on movement to tumble out of that square at the start of the charge?

How about bull rush or overrun? (I understand that tumble would not aid against the AoO the 'target' of the bull rush or overrun).

--Z

 

[frankthedm]

Nope. The action to Charge is the a special full round action. Tumble is done on a movement action. Much like Combat Expertice has to be done on an attack or full actack action not a charge action. The concept of Charging in D&D is a risky action that must focus on assault, not defence, thankfully wotc made sure the rules kept that so.

Tumble http://d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm
Action
Not applicable. Tumbling is part of movement, so a Tumble check is part of a move action.

Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

So even if once could tumble with charge action, they would have to use the Acceltated tumble option to satisfy the nothing can hinder your movement part of charging.

 

[mvincent]

Tumble http://d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm
Action
Not applicable. Tumbling is part of movement, so a Tumble check is part of a move action.

The same statement is used for jumping, and the 3.5 FAQ says that you can jump during a charge (i.e. the intent of this statement isn't exactly as you interpret, and probably should've been written better). For example: your interpretation would disallow tumbling while withdrawing (which wouldn't make much sense).

So even if once could tumble with charge action, they would have to use the Acceltated tumble option to satisfy the nothing can hinder your movement part of charging.

I agree, one would have to use accelerated tumbling in order to use it with a charge.

 

[frankthedm]

The same statement is used for jumping, and the 3.5 FAQ says that you can jump during a charge (i.e. the intent of this statement isn't exactly as you interpret, and probably should've been written better).

Jumping is Offence / Defence neutral and within the "get at your ASAP and ignore the risk" Flavor of charging. A reasonable option for the faq to add to charging. Tumbling goes against the "get at your ASAP and ignore the risk" Flavor of charging. The rules do not permit it when charging, the FAQ did not add it to charging options.

 

[mvincent]

Jumping is Offence / Defence neutral and within the "get at your ASAP and ignore the risk" Flavor of charging. A reasonable option for the faq to add to charging. Tumbling goes against the "get at your ASAP and ignore the risk" Flavor of charging. The rules do not permit it when charging, the FAQ did not add it to charging options.

I (or you) cannot be certain that "get at your ASAP and ignore the risk Flavor" was why the Sage validated jumping during a charge. Concluding that he intended it for only that situation seems a bit spurious. Also, the FAQ is more in the business of clarifying interpretations than adding new rules... if the Sage does purposefully add a new rule, he typically labels it as such.

All we can conclude is that the FAQ ruling sets precedence for what was intended by "X is part of movement, so a X is part of a move action".

For me, I believe the writer's intent was in the first part of the sentence; i.e. the writer likely wasn't considering full round move actions, and the sentence likely should have been written as ""X is part of movement, so X is usually part of a move action". The FAQ seems to back up this interpretation, but I leave it the hands of the Original Poster to decide for himself.

If we are going strictly on flavor, then tumbling seems to fit the "get out while avoiding attacks" flavor of withdrawing, which your interpretation would prevent the combining of.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The same statement is used for jumping, and the 3.5 FAQ says that you can jump during a charge (i.e. the intent of this statement isn't exactly as you interpret, and probably should've been written better).

Given that the very first line of the 'Benefit' section of the Leap Attack feat says that you can Jump as part of a charge, it seems reasonable to assume that without the feat, you can't... borne out by the skill description and in contradiction to the FAQ answer.

It seems to me that the FAQ erred in this instance.

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

Given that the very first line of the 'Benefit' section of the Leap Attack feat says that you can Jump as part of a charge, it seems reasonable to assume that without the feat, you can't

I actually addressed that earlier in this thread.

The original description of the Leap Attack feat (or possibly a similar feat in the Forgotten Fealms book) implied that a jump and charge could normally be done together. When this was asked about (in the FAQ I believe) a muddled answer was given saying that if you viewed that jumping and charging could not be done together, then the feat gave this ability. I believe the feat was later re-written (here) to explicitly express the allowance*, but then the FAQ was altered to allow jumping and charging normally (and the muddled answer removed evidently). Anyone else remember this? It's possible I'm thinking of the Battle Jump feat (from Unapproachable East). I just remember the feat involved jumping down onto things.

* Or it is possibly just descriptive text: i.e. "You can combine a powerful charge and a mighty leap into one devastating attack." is in the fluff section of the feat description, where rules are not normally introduced.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I believe the feat was later re-written (here) to explicitly express the allowance*, but then the FAQ was altered to allow jumping and charging normally (and the muddled answer removed evidently).

* Or it is possibly just descriptive text: i.e. "You can combine a powerful charge and a mighty leap into one devastating attack." is in the fluff section of the feat description, where rules are not normally introduced.

The descriptive text isn't what I'm referring to; it's the first line of the feat Benefit (where rules are normally introduced):
You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent.

(Both the fluff sentence you quoted and this line are in the published feat in CAdv.)

Not "If you combine..." or "When you combine..." but "You can combine..."

A benefit of the feat is that you can combine a jump and a charge.

Which is important, given that the Core rule for Jump is that you can do it as part of a move action.

Given that the rules don't allow Charge and Jump to be combined (with the exception of Leap Attack), altering the FAQ cannot allow it; only altering the rules would have this effect.

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

The descriptive text isn't what I'm referring to

You successfully refuted my side-note, but not my main explanation. My apologies if you got side-tracked by just that note. I'll check my FR book when I get home so that I can give more detail.

Here is some more information:
The description for the Climbing skill has:
"Action
Climbing is part of movement, so it’s generally part of a move action (and may be combined with other types of movement in a move action)."

What do you believe the writer’s intent was here? Could you charge or withdraw while climbing? Could you combine movement modes while charging or withdrawing?

(yeah, yeah: you're probably asking how one could combine movement modes during a charge even if it were allowed, but there are ways, and that's not germane to the discussion anyways)

 

[frankthedm]

Here is some more information:
The description for the Climbing skill has:
"Action
Climbing is part of movement, so it’s generally part of a move action (and may be combined with other types of movement in a move action)."

What do you believe the writer’s intent was here? Could you charge or withdraw while climbing? Could you combine movement modes while charging or withdrawing?

(yeah, yeah: you're probably asking how one could combine movement modes during a charge even if it were allowed, but there are ways, and that's not germane to the discussion anyways)

I am confident a being with a climb speed can charge while climbing as long as it follows the direct and clear path part of charging. Otherwise even accelerated climbing still is a speed reduction that prevent charging bu the RAW.

BTW: If we are going with anecdotal evidence, jumping is definitly not legal on a charge. You don't even have the option to jump over a space that would slow movement.

Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)