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Tumble problems

Water Bob

Adventurer
Does anybody have a problem with the Tumble skill? It doesn't seem to fit the D&D tolkien-esque universe at all. You've got a Daryl-Hannah-Type-In-Blade-Runner come flopping your way, doing the cheerleader thing, and you can't touch her with an Attack of Opportunity as you moves through your square?

If her skill is high enough, she can overcome the armor penalty and tumble right by you in armor, albeit light armor. Daryl wore a leotard.

And what about her equipment? Are her daggers tied to their scabbards? Do her belt pouches jingle, make a lot of noise, and flap back and forth beating her in the gut and groin?

It seems to me that the DM should be very strict on this skill and its use, limiting what the chartacter carries (even more than the weight limitations--an almost empty backback would seem to screw one up).

What do you think?
 

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Dandu

First Post
The DM should also make sure the party bring along trail rations and water and enforce starvation and dehydration rules, mandate that the caster keep detailed lists of what spell components he has, ensure that the party fighter has a whetstone and oil or else his weapon will blunt and rust, and check character sheets to make sure the party has clothes otherwise they're running around town naked.
 
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Rhun

First Post
I'm in agreement with Dandu. If you want a game that pays attention to every single little details, D&D probably ain't the game for you.

I have no issue at all with the way Tumble is written or plays out in the game. As far as the Tolkien-esque thing goes...well, it may not have fit the books all that well, but there are plenty of characters that used "Tumble" in the movies.
 

SuperJebba

First Post
Tumble is a great skill, and of all the rules to be strict about, this is not one that should be on that list. I hardly think a character or two avoiding attacks of opportunity is game breaking.
 

Hello Water Bob,

I don't exactly have an issue with the tumble skill although I can certainly see where you are coming from. There are a couple of ways how you could address this I suppose:

- Like swim, apply a double armor check penalty.
- Use a -2 modifier if you feel that what the character is carrying miscellaneous equipment that is going to hinder them (or -4 if you think it severe enough)

And from Pathfinder:
- Meld it into a couple of other skills and call it acrobatics. The main point here is that by calling the skill tumble, that is what you are restricting it to where as if you call or consider it acrobatics, then you can envisage the attempt some form of fluid movement through a space that does not offer any special opportunities for attack against the target. Essentially you don't have to do cartwheels or tumble to get past or through.
- Rather than a set in stone DC [15 or 25], make the DC dependent upon the skills of the opportunist. In the pathfinder ruleset you have a Combat Maneuver Defense that forms the bulk of this DC, so it is much easier to get past or through the novice wizard than the experienced fighter. Because a character's CMD is a little higher than the 3.5 Tumble DCs, this will most likely create a situation with the skill that you would find a little more believable than presented.

Alternatively you could follow what Dandu was trying to say and not sweat the small stuff. Considering however that it seems your mode of play differs from that, hopefully the above may actually be of use to you.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
The DM should also make sure the party bring along trail rations and enforce starvation rules, mandate that the caster keep detailed lists of what spell components he has, ensure that the party fighter has a whetstone and oil or else his weapon will blunt and rust, and check character sheets to make sure the party has clothes otherwise they're running around town naked.

I know you're attempting to be facetious here, but I actually do all of that in my game.

Here's a starting equipment list for one of the PC's in my game...



XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

CAELIS

Arms

0.0 lb. - Bracers. High Quality leather. These act as a "headband" for wrists by keeping sweat from getting on hands, keeping weapon grip slippery.



Torso

0.0 lb. Loincloth. High Quality fabric. It is not unusual for a Cimmerian to just wear this when the temperature allows.

0.5 lb. - Ladder Suspenders. High Quality leather. These suspenders hold up trews in place of a belt. There is a cross-piece of leather both on chest and at the back that keep the leather straps from slipping off shoulders when doing manual labor.

0.5 lb. - Weapon Belt. High Quality leather. This is a wide leather belt used to hold weapons.

0.5 lb. - Weapon Girdle. High Quality leather. This protects waist from being rubbed raw by the weapon belt. Finn had three of these made and gave them to each of the three brothers as we entered the second year of the graiis and began weapons training.

0.5 lb. - Belt Pouch. This is a small leather, drawstring pouch used to carry small items. Sharpening stone carried in this one.

0.5 lb. - Belt Pouch. Mirror carried in this one.

0.5 lb. - Belt Pouch. Leather-wrapped animal fat carried in this one.

1.0 lb. - Animal Fat. Carried in third pouch, this is a lump of hardened animal fat, wrapped in a leather cloth, used to oil weapons. I can also use it for cooking, if need-be.

2.0 lb. - Sharpening Stone. This is a sharpening stone for my weapons. I carry it in a belt pouch, which leaves little room for anything else in it.

0.5 lb. - Steel Mirror. My father gave this to me. It's very valuable. It's a small, palm-sized polished steel mirror. I keep it oiled, or it will rust. Animal fat will do. And I must wipe it clean of the oil when I use it. It fits into one of my belt pouches.

0.0 lb. - Drinking Jack. Leather. This is my favorite ale mug. Cimmerians love beer and ale of all sorts. I'm no different. I carry this on my weapon belt at the small of my back.

0.0 lb. - Leine. High Quality cloth. This is a billowy, baggy Cimmerian shirt. It hangs to my knees, but when I wear it, I tuck it into my kilt. Cimmerians often do not wear these when the temperature is warm. We go bare chested when we can to prevent wear-and-tear on the leine.

0.0 lb. - Leather Costrel. This is a pitch-lined leather waterskin with a cork stopper. It also has a strap to throw across my chest.

2.0 lb. - Hatchet. My father made one steel hatchet. The rest are all iron. I took it for myself. It hangs from a leather loop on my weapon belt at my hip. This hatchet has a mirror-like steel finish to it.

2.0 lb. - Hatchet. This is an iron hatchet. One side is the blade, the other is a flat, heavy piece that circles the haft, making the hatchet also a hammer. This hatchet hangs from its own loop on my opposite hip.



Legs

1.0 lb. Work Boots. High Quality leather. I don't wear socks.

0.5 lb. Trews. High Quality heavy wool. These are tight fitting Cimmerian pants.



Total Weight: 12 lbs.



XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX



Overboard? Maybe. We like it. We've got strong mental images of the characters in the game. Details like this go a long way towards providing immersion in the game world.

I have a rule: If it's not on the character sheet, the character doesn't have it.

As for bookkeeping, it's not really a chore at all. We make up a list first, and we're done. It doesn't usually change that much during the game. We just keep the sheet in the player's character folder. A player who invests the time to pick and describe all his equipment like this usually memorizes what he has pretty quickly.





I'm in agreement with Dandu. If you want a game that pays attention to every single little details, D&D probably ain't the game for you.

Been that way for me for decades. I remember keeping track of spell components back in the AD&D 1E days. We've had some pretty neat times with mages trying to find spell components when they ran out.

I remember one time the mage needed iron shavings and he ran out. One player had a light bulb go off. "Hey! We're in a dank, humid dungeon, right? There's hinges on the door? The hinges are made of....iron? They're rusted? I think we've found our iron shavings."

It was a blast.





I have no issue at all with the way Tumble is written or plays out in the game. As far as the Tolkien-esque thing goes...well, it may not have fit the books all that well, but there are plenty of characters that used "Tumble" in the movies.

Just out of curiosity, which scenes are you talking about. I'd like to get a better mental picture of tumbling besides Daryl Hannah doing flips in Blade Runner.

Point me to the good tumbling examples, please. :p





Tumble is a great skill, and of all the rules to be strict about, this is not one that should be on that list. I hardly think a character or two avoiding attacks of opportunity is game breaking.

What's gamebreaking for me is my suspension of disbelief. If a character is wearing stuff that will go flying off of him when he tumbles, like weapons in sheathes or through hoops on a weapon belt, then they need to be secured somehow from flying out.

And, if a dagger is tied to its sheath, then it's not going to come out of the sheath that quickly when the character needs to draw it.





- Like swim, apply a double armor check penalty.
- Use a -2 modifier if you feel that what the character is carrying miscellaneous equipment that is going to hinder them (or -4 if you think it severe enough)

And from Pathfinder:

Thanks for the advice. Good comments. I think, though, I'll just think it through logically and ask any tumblers how they're keeping their stuff from flying all over the place.
 

Dandu

First Post
Overboard? Maybe. We like it. We've got strong mental images of the characters in the game. Details like this go a long way towards providing immersion in the game world.
How?
 

Does anybody have a problem with the Tumble skill? It doesn't seem to fit the D&D tolkien-esque universe at all.

I read Tolkien, I watched the movies... *shrug*... I really can't fault Randall in Clerks 2 when he says, "All it was, was a bunch of people walking, three movies of people walking to a *redacted* volcano."

D&D is not "Lord of the Rings", so no I don't have a problem; I don't do Tolkien/LotR when I run games, I do 300 and Prince of Persia.
 

Water Bob

Adventurer

*blink-blink, Homer Simpson stare*

You may not play that way, but you don't understand how it can be more immersive to know and picture clearly every item a character carries? What it looks like...the history behind the item...where the character wears it?

If you can't understand that, I'm not sure I can explain it to you.



I read Tolkien, I watched the movies... *shrug*... I really can't fault Randall in Clerks 2 when he says, "All it was, was a bunch of people walking, three movies of people walking to a *redacted* volcano."

Yeah, that line cracked me up. I like the original Star Wars trilogy better, too. B-)



I do 300 and Prince of Persia.

Yeah, see, I thought 300 was "OK" and Prince of Persia a fun little romp, but nothing to write home about.

Obviously, my games are more gritty, realistic, and simulationist.

While you're doing Prince of Persia, I'm doing Braveheart.

Different strokes, and all that.
 

Obviously, my games are more gritty, realistic, and simulationist.

While you're doing Prince of Persia, I'm doing Braveheart.

Different strokes, and all that.

I understand that. My point though is that appear to have leapt to the assumption that D&D is a "tolkien-esque universe" and therefore the Tumble skill feels out of place to you. I'm saying that's not the case; lots of people are obsessed with gritty D&D, but that doesn't mean it's what the _game_ is about. Either in a mechanical sense (by being super deadly) or in an in-game/in-fiction sense (look at the types of spells and the proliferation of magic items).

D&D can be run/played a variety of ways. You can even turn around and have a game that's focused on pure politics. The ability to warp the way you run/play the game has little to do with the built-in assumptions of the rules. That's my primary point. Tumble fits the assumptions of the D&D rules and the "implied setting" of the game; it's not Braveheart, it's not Conan, it's not Fafhrd & Grey Mouser, it's not Elric, and it's not 300 or Prince of Persia either.

It's really its own strange little thing that people then drift to match their own sensibilities. As a sidenote, this is part of the problem that some people have with 4E; the game is _much_ more specific and focused in its assumptions about characters, what they do, what the world is, etc. It's much harder to drift the game to match assumptions other than the game's inherent ones.

So for example, you can run a political-focused game in 3.x, despite the fact that it's got really poor support for anything other than killing things and taking their stuff. But you _can_ do it, it's just going to take some extra work on the part of the GM. 4E is much more difficult because of the laser-like focus of character capabilities.

*shrug*

If it's a problem, just remove the skill. Slapping all kinds of modifiers and other stuff on it is simply saying, "I don't want you using this skill" without simply stepping up and telling players that. Leaving the skill in and hitting people with a bunch of requirements and modifiers in the name of "realism" is an awful lot like putting a piece of meat in front of a cat and then smacking it everytime it reaches for it; cruel, unnecessary, and counter-productive. In my opinion.

But like you said... different strokes and all that. *shrug*
 

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