Turning D&D into WoW?

[Mouseferatu]

Let the wisdom of the Mouse wash over you and through you and cleanse you.

Or, ya know, something.

The truth is, though, I'm not really all that wise. I just talk a lot, so I sometimes make good points by the law of averages.

 

[MerricB]

I've just made the comment in Ryan Dancey's blog that effectively he's advocating removing combat from D&D, because it can't do it "as well" as WoW.

I've a lot of respect for Ryan, but I think he's become consumed so much with the success of WoW that he can't see anything else.

Let's face it: we're talking about a dragon here. You know? Mythological creature. Been around in legends for a long time? Wings, Fangs, Fiery Breath?

Is there any reason why WoW and D&D shouldn't be somewhat similar with how they handle the same creature?

If you actually check out the description of a 3e combat with a dragon, I bet you'd find it similar to a WoW combat vs a dragon. Except that a high-level dragon might be doing the non-dragonish thing of casting spells instead of actually attacking...

Cheers!

 

[Grog]

Okay. The 4E dragon's attack routine goes like this:

"Inferno" in 25 foot radius
Two claw attacks
A tail slap which knocks the target back
A single-target breath attack which does continuous damage
Fly to a different position on the ground

Onyxia has the following attacks (no indication of what order they're used in):

Breath that hits all targets in front of the dragon
"Knock away" attack
Wing buffet
Cleave
Tail slap which knocks the target back
Flying and hovering in the air
Single-target breath attack with no continuous damage
Whelp spawns
AoE Fear

Can someone complaining about similarities please point them out to me? I see exactly one - the tail slap. Other than that, where are they?

 

[Pale]

Where, in this example, is the similarity to WoW? How is the dragon combat mentioned on the website at all similar to Onyxia? Can you point it out to me? Because I just don't see it.

I pointed out other examples that you chose to ignore, Grog. Very specific ones. I'm not concerned with the original example in this thread, as I've never been to Onyxia.

 

[Nifft]

They're both based off an earlier version of D&D. That's really all I see.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Grog]

I pointed out other examples that you chose to ignore, Grog. Very specific ones.

Your examples were vague generalities. Where are the specifics?

I'm not concerned with the original example in this thread, as I've never been to Onyxia.

Well, I am. And I don't see the supposed similarities.

 

[Mephistopheles]

The similarities are certainly there but I think it's a non sequitur that D&D is trying to emulate WoW and will fail.

Ryan leaves out the fact that Onyxia, like most bosses in WoW, will be more or less exactly the same fight every time. There's really nothing for players to do but farm what they require, turn up, jump through the hoops as required, and then pick up loot and do it again next week. And the week after that. And the week after that. (Really, 3 days in Onyxia's case but only strengthens my point.)

One of the real strengths of tabletop (and one of the things that keeps me playing it 20 years into the hobby) is also one of the real weaknesses of MMOs (and one of the major things that drove me to quit playing them 2 years into the hobby): flexibility. Tabletop has it, MMOs don't. In D&D I can be fighting a dragon for a range of different reasons with a range of possible outcomes. When I'd fight Onyxia in WoW, the reason was loot and/or dkp, and the outcome was either a wipe if someone did something stupid or a successful kill, and that's it.

Like I said to begin with, though, there are obvious similarities and certain elements it looks like 4E will be nabbing from WoW. Considering how much WoW owes to D&D for its existence I'd say that turnabout is fair play, wouldn't you?

 

[psionotic]

Scaling Spells, Scaling Racial Abilites...

Seriously, if you can't see the ideas that they are yoinking from World of Warcraft... then I don't think you're playing World of Warcraft.

I'm not sure what you're saying here... I've played WoW since beta, and am very familiar with its mechanics. I've also been keeping a very close eye on the 4e info we have, and I don't see much of a similarity, honestly. 4e's biggest influences seem to be... D&D 3.5, with a large helping of Star Wars Saga Edition and other D20 games like Iron Heroes.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

The "similarities" are due to the fact that both companies are using systematic systems to describe multicharacter fantasy combat with variuos classes and abilities. They are also trying to control fun levels to desired ends. (In WoW's case, to stimulate the pleasure center in the same manner as any addictive activity.)

 

[RigaMortus2]

Where, in this example, is the similarity to WoW? How is the dragon combat mentioned on the website at all similar to Onyxia? Can you point it out to me? Because I just don't see it.

Since when can a dragon's tail slap knock someone 10 feet back? That's a cool ability and all, and an interesting addition to 4E dragons, but it just seems very very similiar to the WoW dragon's Tail Sweep ability. So that's one coincidence.

So now dragons apparently have the ability to spew a ball of fire which can ignite a person on fire. Again, cool new ability for 4E dragons, but look here again, the same WoW dragon has the same ability called Engulfing Flames. Yet another "coincidence", right?

Then it attacks BOTH the Cleric and the Fighter with it's two claws as a Standard Action. In 3E this would be a Full Round Action, but since we don't know the 4E rules, looks like they allowed some special Standard Action attack to make 2 claw attacks on (at least) 2 opponents (the Cleric and Fighter) at the same time. Ok, another cool addition to 4E dragons, something that wasn't in 3E. Well, look here at the WoW dragon. It has an ability called Cleave (not the same as D&D mind you). What does it do? It hits all enemies in front of it with with a claw attack. Yet another coincidence? We're up to 3 now...

Dragons breath fire, whether they are D&D dragons or WoW dragons. Nothing new here. But the fact that it is now a Free Action just reeks of video "combo attacks".

What does the dragon do at the end of his attack sequence? He flies away out of reach (it happened to have a Move Action left, even though it took 2 standard actions and 2 free actions, all of which were attacks... c-c-c-combo!). So the dragon flies away, again, nothing new. The WoW dragon happens to do the same.

I don't know, there are just too many "coincidences" regarding the two attack sequences between the WoW dragon and a 4E one. Plus it seems to me that the 4E one is pulling of your typical video game attack "combo".

Now I personally am not saying this is a BAD THING... I am just pointing out the coincidences, ones which I didn't see before when everyone was crying out "4E is going to become WoW". I think those people do have some validity to their arguements. Whether it is a good or bad thing, I guess that's each person and gaming groups preference...