Spoilers TV Shows with Great Endings

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I think that there are three separate issues going on here. But before I get into that, I need to start by saying the Whedon is most certainly NOT a hack. That's not to defend anything about the person, but just to state the obvious- there is a reason that people (especially the people in the greater nerd community) had put him on a pedestal- Films like Toy Story. Titan A.E. Serenity. The Cabin in the Woods. The Avengers.
And shows like Buffy. Angel. Firefly (even though I still think it's not all that). Dollhouse (I will return to this). Agents of SHIELD.

I discovered later on, that he also worked on Rosanne back in the first couple of seasons

 

[Stalker0]

Strong disagree. Season 7 is the worst season, in my opinion. But Season 6? I put that right there with Season 3. It's just Season 6 can be a tough watch.

I think 6 is a bit bi-polar of a season. It has some of the series best, I mean Once more with Feeling was absolutely groundbreaking. The arise of Willow as the bad guy, and how that was resolved....wonderful.

But there is a lot of garbage thrown around in that season, and its also so damn....sad. The hope element to the show is stripped away for a lot of the season. It eventually returns, but for a show that has historically been upbeat a lot of the time, it was a notable change in theme that didn't work for everyone.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think 6 is a bit bi-polar of a season. It has some of the series best, I mean Once more with Feeling was absolutely groundbreaking. The arise of Willow as the bad guy, and how that was resolved....wonderful.

But there is a lot of garbage thrown around in that season, and its also so damn....sad. The hope element to the show is stripped away for a lot of the season. It eventually returns, but for a show that has historically been upbeat a lot of the time, it was a notable change in theme that didn't work for everyone.

No disagreement. But that sadness is also what made it so great. By showing the transition to, um ... adulting? .... it captured that lost feeling that underlays the freedom that so many feel after they have finished high school/college. The drifting apart of friends, the aimlessness, the striving to try new things and yet find disappointment in them and yourself. There is just a lot of meat on that bone, which is why I loved that season, because it tries (and sometimes fails, and sometimes succeeds) in a way that is different than any other Buffy season.

But with all that said ... Season 3 is still the best.

Also? Once More With Feeling was SO GOOD. Arguably in the pantheon of greatest episodes ever. My only quibble? It was so good it seems to have kicked off the whole, "All cool hipster shows must have a musical show." Honestly? Most aren't that great.

Also also? I'd talk more about Willow's Season Six ending but ...

Bored now.

 

[Stalker0]

Also? Once More With Feeling was SO GOOD. Arguably in the pantheon of greatest episodes ever. My only quibble? It was so good it seems to have kicked off the whole, "All cool hipster shows must have a musical show." Honestly? Most aren't that great.

Completely agree. What was great about it was not just the numbers, but that it was made a core part of the plot. The musical wasn't a musical just because.... but was a tool by the villain (a malicious one at that).

Further, the fact that the singing wasn't just singing, but actually forced harsh truths out of the characters created a lot of drama and big reveals that drove a lot of the plot for many episodes afterwards.

In comparison, most shows that do a musical number now, it feels like checking a box. Its "we are singing for....reasons" and then then just do it and move on.

 

[Deset Gled]

But there is a lot of garbage thrown around in that season, and its also so damn....sad. The hope element to the show is stripped away for a lot of the season. It eventually returns, but for a show that has historically been upbeat a lot of the time, it was a notable change in theme that didn't work for everyone.

It's important to remember that this season also started in October 2001, and was dealing with an immediately post-911 mindset. It definitely had an effect (Bonus Link: the Center For Strategic and International Studies wrote a white paper about 9/11 based on what they called the "Buffy Paradigm": Biological Warfare and the "Buffy Paradigm").

Also, this was pre-streaming. There are shows that are good for binge watching and shows that aren't. Lot's of Buffy binges quite well, but season 6 is better with breaks.

Also? Once More With Feeling was SO GOOD. Arguably in the pantheon of greatest episodes ever. My only quibble? It was so good it seems to have kicked off the whole, "All cool hipster shows must have a musical show." Honestly? Most aren't that great.

Rather than actually provide my own insight on this or your previous post, I will direct people to TV Tropes. They used to have a section called "Seinfeld is Unfunny" discussing this; it has now been mostly renamed to Once Original Now Common, with the main name being given to a supertrope with many other subcategories beneath it. Seinfeld is Unfunny.

 

[Guest 85555]

Rather than actually provide my own insight on this or your previous post, I will direct people to TV Tropes. They used to have a section called "Seinfeld is Unfunny" discussing this; it has now been mostly renamed to Once Original Now Common, with the main name being given to a supertrope with many other subcategories beneath it. Seinfeld is Unfunny.

I must defend the Seinfeld show here. I remember seeing things like this online, like Cracked articles-videos and the like. And when I read them they often seemed to make a convincing case. For example one of the things I saw, it may have been cracked but can't recall, made the point that Seinfeld has no real jokes or punchlines and backed it up with clips. But then I decided to watch the entire show again from episode 1 to the finale and I quickly realized 1) the show is still very funny if you have a sense of humor and like smart jokes, 2) they had been cherry picking to make a case that there were no jokes. It very clearly has jokes and punchlines. Especially when you think of the pablum that came before Seinfeld on sitcoms

Another thing I realized watching it with my wife, whose first language isn't English, was how universal the humor in the show is thanks to characters like Kramer and Newman who do a lot of very physical comedy.

 

[Zardnaar]

I must defend the Seinfeld show here. I remember seeing things like this online, like Cracked articles-videos and the like. And when I read them they often seemed to make a convincing case. For example one of the things I saw, it may have been cracked but can't recall, made the point that Seinfeld has no real jokes or punchlines and backed it up with clips. But then I decided to watch the entire show again from episode 1 to the finale and I quickly realized 1) the show is still very funny if you have a sense of humor and like smart jokes, 2) they had been cherry picking to make a case that there were no jokes. It very clearly has jokes and punchlines. Especially when you think of the pablum that came before Seinfeld on sitcoms

Another thing I realized watching it with my wife, whose first language isn't English, was how universal the humor in the show is thanks to characters like Kramer and Newman who do a lot of very physical comedy.

I didn't like Seinfeld back in the day. I was probably to young and the show was to American.

Recently watched season 1 and part of season 2. Wouldn't call it great but it's OK. I can at least see why people liked it.

 

[Guest 85555]

I didn't like Seinfeld back in the day. I was probably to young and the show was to American.

Recently watched season 1 and part of season 2. Wouldn't call it great but it's OK. I can at least see why people liked it.

Which is fair. If you don't find it great, you don't find it great. Humor is very subjective. I think what bothers me is people are often willfully misreading the show and completely ignoring the context of the show as well when they write these articles (American TV was just different before Seinfeld and you wouldn't have shows like Friends, Always Sunny in Philidelphia, etc without it). Before that we were watching stuff like Family Ties and Full House. And it had been a long time since we had a show where characters were a bit despicable (apparently they were very influenced by the Abbot and Costello Show which is very apparent if you go back and watch that).

To your point some of it is certainly cultural. I think it relies heavily on humor that is oriented around north eastern US culture, and a lot the jokes are about the subtleties of social interaction in American society. When I watched it with my wife some of the very American specific things didn't land as well with her (and some things landed only after I clarified the meaning). I also noticed she had a much more negative reaction to George but a positive reaction to Kramer and Elaine (which was interesting because George was such a popular character in the 90s)

 

[soviet]

Seinfeld is incredibly well written and performed from season 2 or 3 to 6. It loses something after Larry David leaves.

 

[Gradine]

Once More With Feeling gets all the credit, and not undeserved, but for my money the toast of Season 6 is Tabula Rosa. You want to talk about harsh truths setting up season long plotlines...