Spoilers TV Shows with Great Endings

[Zardnaar]

I agree with this one.

I don't watch a lot of TV, so it is this one, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine for me.

Yup they had good endings. DS9 had a good start as well.

 

[beta-ray]

"The Bad Batch" has the best ending I remember seeing recently.

The Bad Batch ending was good. I didn't expect to like that series as much as I did.

Funny, I never really considered it as a TV show. In my brain, I separate the streaming series from a "TV show". I think because I was raised on broadcast and cable television, which has more set rules about how the episodes were composed. Sigh my brain is weird.

 

[MarkB]

Out of curiosity, did you binge it?

One thing I have noticed is that if you watched it when it first aired (not binging), you tend to have a slightly different view. But if you binge it ... the awfulness is quite apparent.

That reminds me of Walton Goggins's character in Justified. I liked that show overall when I binged it, but never did get why we followed his character so much and were seemingly expected to empathise with him and root for him in his efforts. For all his charm he was still a criminal who got a lot of people hurt and killed, and at any point in the show I'd have been just as happy if he were imprisoned or got himself killed.

 

[Zardnaar]

That reminds me of Walton Goggins's character in Justified. I liked that show overall when I binged it, but never did get why we followed his character so much and were seemingly expected to empathise with him and root for him in his efforts. For all his charm he was still a criminal who got a lot of people hurt and killed, and at any point in the show I'd have been just as happy if he were imprisoned or got himself killed.

Great character and show.

Justified had a variety of characters to cheer for.

 

[Dioltach]

That reminds me of Walton Goggins's character in Justified. I liked that show overall when I binged it, but never did get why we followed his character so much and were seemingly expected to empathise with him and root for him in his efforts. For all his charm he was still a criminal who got a lot of people hurt and killed, and at any point in the show I'd have been just as happy if he were imprisoned or got himself killed.

Part of it, I think, is to highlight how close the resemblance is between him and Raylan. If Raylan took one step closer to the line, you know he'd end up like Boyd.

Plus, a huge part of the enjoyment of Justified is the dialogue and delivery, with Walton Goggins and Timothy Olyphant leading the way.

 

[Ryujin]

Binge watching older television shows is a recipe for disappointment. I binge watched seasons 6 and 7 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and hated those seasons more than I would have had I watched them when they first aired. Seeing multiple episodes in a row instead of paced out weekly really has an impact on how you enjoy the show.

Later revelations on the writers/producers/show runners can also have an effect on how you view the content, as you can end up seeing it in a completely different light.

 

[Ryujin]

Part of it, I think, is to highlight how close the resemblance is between him and Raylan. If Raylan took one step closer to the line, you know he'd end up like Boyd.

Plus, a huge part of the enjoyment of Justified is the dialogue and delivery, with Walton Goggins and Timothy Olyphant leading the way.

Yup, that's how I read it too. They grew up together, had mostly the same experiences right down to detestable fathers, and took different lessons from their experiences.

 

[MGibster]

Later revelations on the writers/producers/show runners can also have an effect on how you view the content, as you can end up seeing it in a completely different light.

Yeah. It's amazing to me how many people who gushed over Whedon in 2001 now tell me he's a hack writer and they could always tell that his creepiness oozed through his writing. I've seen people doing the same thing with Nickelodeon shows looking back at scenes that nobody really thought was creepy back in the day but it's creepy now.

SiL is a huge Buff fan. She's hated those seasons for decades lol.

I felt as though the show should have ended at season 5 which was a high point. Even had I not binged seasons 6 and 7, I would not have liked it. Binging just made it worse though.

 

[Ryujin]

Yeah. It's amazing to me how many people who gushed over Whedon in 2001 now tell me he's a hack writer and they could always tell that his creepiness oozed through his writing. I've seen people doing the same thing with Nickelodeon shows looking back at scenes that nobody really thought was creepy back in the day but it's creepy now.

Times change and so do views. Listen to the lyrics of most love songs, from the '60s, and tell me they aren't stalkerish today. The Monkees translate particularly badly. Anyone who says that they saw the Whedon thing coming is most likely lying, if only to themselves.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yeah. It's amazing to me how many people who gushed over Whedon in 2001 now tell me he's a hack writer and they could always tell that his creepiness oozed through his writing. I've seen people doing the same thing with Nickelodeon shows looking back at scenes that nobody really thought was creepy back in the day but it's creepy now.

I think that there are three separate issues going on here. But before I get into that, I need to start by saying the Whedon is most certainly NOT a hack. That's not to defend anything about the person, but just to state the obvious- there is a reason that people (especially the people in the greater nerd community) had put him on a pedestal- Films like Toy Story. Titan A.E. Serenity. The Cabin in the Woods. The Avengers.
And shows like Buffy. Angel. Firefly (even though I still think it's not all that). Dollhouse (I will return to this). Agents of SHIELD.

And, of course, Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog. I mean, that alone is enough for some! But seriously, all of that? It's a murderers' row of nerd canon, mapping out the transition of nerd culture from the fringe to the mainstream.

But his writing suffers from what I call the Citizen Kane problem. If someone today watches Citizen Kane without any context, they might recognize it as a good movie. Or they might ask why people think it is such a big deal. But without context, they will likely not understand why so many consider it one of the, if not the, greatest films of all time. And the reason for that is that CK was so amazing and so ahead of its time ... at that time! But all the innovations have now been taught and mined and used in the years since that it's hard to understand how groundbreaking it was.

Same with Whedon. There was nothing like his writing at the time. The distinctive, witty, and referential dialogue. The subtext and subversion. It was like nothing else out there. From 1997 (the airing of BTVS) through 2012 (Avengers movie) he could do no wrong ... just be wronged, by Fox, usually.

But success attracts imitators, and the quippy and self-referential style ("Whedonesque") spread. So when people look back, it's hard to see what was so distinctive back then. In fact, that style is pervasive that a lot of people complain about it now (okay, it's time for the quippy banter in the superhero movie ... checked that box!).

The second issue is that the past is the past. Attitudes were different enough that things slipped by. Plus, Whedon was knowing for putting in strong feminist themes in his work, and so many of his regulars kept working with him, that a lot of viewers probably ascribed any uncomfortable thought to, well, maybe they weren't grokking what he was doing.

Which brings us to the third issue. Take Dollhouse. I remember enjoying it, but ... that premise. I just had issues with it. I never just had the ability to enjoy it at the time... it was always a weird watch. I remember at the time I thought that there's gotta be something he's trying to say, or would develop. Or my best worst example- Charisma Carpenter in Angel. If you've watched the show, you know what I mean. She came over from Buffy, and at a certain point in the series, her character just got so hosed. Again, at the time, I thought maybe it was just bad writing or something- no one is perfect. But if you watched the Buffyverse, the CC arc on Angel is just ... it's not good. And then when you later learn what was going on, it all clicks into place.

Whew. That's a lot. There is, of course, another group of people. You know. #SNYDERCUT But while I won't engage with that, it seemed that by Age of Ultron his ability to maintain a fresh writing perspective had .... diminished.

I still love BTVS as one of my all-time favorite shows. Whedon was not a hack. But yes, knowing some things (context) can make some of the plot choices of his shows... not great (see also, Firefly's direction that I've discussed before).

I felt as though the show should have ended at season 5 which was a high point. Even had I not binged seasons 6 and 7, I would not have liked it. Binging just made it worse though.

Strong disagree. Season 7 is the worst season, in my opinion. But Season 6? I put that right there with Season 3. It's just Season 6 can be a tough watch.