Tweaking Skills - Thoughts?

[drexes]

I hate to say this, it being a pet peeve and all, but "realistically" (argh!) if the characters all look like jumbles to me then no amount of decipher script would help me at all. I think for there to be a basis of decipher script then the only recourse is some discernable similarity to a language I know. Thus no amount of study will make me able to read arabic, but if I spoke and read farsi or some other language with similar symbols then I could have a shot at figuring it out.

homonyms are killing me...
Drexes

 

[Nellisir]

You need to break down each rank of speak language into different specialties.
Decipher script by its very nature requires "ranks".
A better idea might be to give a bonus due to synergy based on the total number of languages a character can read/write for deceipher script. "Speaking" really shouldn't have a bearing on deciphering scripts whereas "reading/writing" should.
What this would do is to keep the "basic" skill structure intact and not have to keep trackof individual ranks in language skills.
Perform works similarly - each type of perform is treated as a different skill with its own set of ranks.
Breaking up speak and read/write language is not uncommon. A lot of 3rd party material does it and so does d20 Modern.
It also helps the booking with things like barbarians being illiterate.
Some 3rd party material actually requires "ranks" in each language in order to fluently speak it.

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting, but I'll try and reply to a few points.

Having each language be a skill (re Perform (harp)), and each known language give a synergy bonus to a Decipher Script check only aggravates the skill point question and adds another layer of complexity to an area of the system that doesn't need it. IMO. Furthermore, you have to address questions such as "what is fluent" How is a 1st level character with 4 ranks in his native tongue different from a 10th level foreign character with 13 ranks in the same language?

Secondly, according to the RAW, literacy isn't a requirement for Decipher Script. Being trained is, but there are "official" ways one could gain the skill but not literacy.

I look at it this way. A literate character automatically reads the languages he or she is literate in. An illiterate character needs to make a Decipher Script check to read anything. Illiteracy in this case isn't a complete absence of knowledge, it's more likely pre-school or kindergarten level literacy (recognizing most letters and extraordinarily simple words).

I'm probably going to create "instrument groups" for the Perform skill, anyways. More fun that way.

Not sure if that answered any of your points, but I hope so!


Nell.

 

[Nellisir]

So you are going to a "rank" system for Speak Language then?

The current 3.x rules don't have one (although some 3rd party supplements do - like Celtic Age by Avalanche Press.). In the core you either speak (and read) a language or you don't.

Do you have a page number for this? I didn't see any changes to languages in my copy. I'm curious to see what they did.

 

[Paraxis]

I like the language idea alot, just don't give them the option of literacy.

New Skill
Languages: For every two ranks in this skill you speak and read an extra language above your normal starting languages (the one or two from race and bonus from INT). Also this skill is used to decipher scripts of unknown languages.

As far as the others got what you are doing sounds fine, I would give everyone 2 extra skill points a level. A rule I use in my game is if you get a +2 or greater from either race or a feat those skills are always considered class skills. It makes the +2/+2 feats more attractive and it means the racial bonuses are more fitting, the only elf in my game has the best spot of all and she is a wizard (the hawk familiar sitting on her shoulder helps too, +3 spot and alertness feat).

 

[Nellisir]

New Skill
Languages: For every two ranks in this skill you speak and read an extra language above your normal starting languages (the one or two from race and bonus from INT). Also this skill is used to decipher scripts of unknown languages.

I like it, though I'm not sure it'd fit in my campaign. I like the PCs to work just a little bit for their literacy. Also, the dead space between each language would bother me.

As far as the others got what you are doing sounds fine, I would give everyone 2 extra skill points a level. A rule I use in my game is if you get a +2 or greater from either race or a feat those skills are always considered class skills. It makes the +2/+2 feats more attractive and it means the racial bonuses are more fitting, the only elf in my game has the best spot of all and she is a wizard (the hawk familiar sitting on her shoulder helps too, +3 spot and alertness feat).

Thanks. I'll have to think about that.

I have been thinking about familiars, though. I think I'm going to ditch standard familiars and steal a page from the psion - instead of X animal granting Y benefits, spellcasters will get a familiar which grants Y benefits, and can take the form of (one mundane, "familiar", sort of animal). A "curious" or "inquisitive" familiar, then, might be a cat or ferret or parrot.

 

[DarkKestral]

I have been thinking about familiars, though. I think I'm going to ditch standard familiars and steal a page from the psion - instead of X animal granting Y benefits, spellcasters will get a familiar which grants Y benefits, and can take the form of (one mundane, "familiar", sort of animal). A "curious" or "inquisitive" familiar, then, might be a cat or ferret or parrot.

Great Idea! I'll have to use that! That'll be great for people who like the concept of familiars, and want some variety in how each one benefits mages. If you get that idea worked up, post it!

I also love the concept of making speak/write languages and decipher script one skill. I like the idea that with a higher bonus, (every 2 points perhaps?) people can speak more fluently (I like the idea that scripts in a native language would be at a high circumstance bonus such +10, since the person understands the language well, and therefore is more clued into noticing unusual patterns)

 

[irdeggman]

Do you have a page number for this? I didn't see any changes to languages in my copy. I'm curious to see what they did.

Right - no "ranks".

But page 24 of Celtic Age talks about "Celtic Languages" and the ones that are "related" to each other.

It talks about how to make Speak Language checks using Int as a modifier.

The book also makes all characters illiterate unless they take the Literacy feat which allows them to read/write a single language they can speak. The feat must be taken for each additional language that the character wishes to be literate in.

Core 3.5 has no language checks at all.

SRD

Key Ability: The abbreviation of the ability whose modifier applies to the skill check. Exception: Speak Language has “None” as its key ability because the use of this skill does not require a check.

Try Again: Not applicable. There are no Speak Language checks to fail.
The Speak Language skill doesn’t work like other skills. Languages work as follows.
• You start at 1st level knowing one or two languages (based on your race), plus an additional number of languages equal to your starting Intelligence bonus.
• You can purchase Speak Language just like any other skill, but instead of buying a rank in it, you choose a new language that you can speak.
• You don’t make Speak Language checks. You either know a language or you don’t.
• A literate character (anyone but a barbarian who has not spent skill points to become literate) can read and write any language she speaks. Each language has an alphabet, though sometimes several spoken languages share a single alphabet.

 

[Nellisir]

...page 24 of Celtic Age talks about "Celtic Languages" and the ones that are "related" to each other.

Ah, there it is. No where near the Literacy or Skills section.

The book also makes all characters illiterate unless they take the Literacy feat which allows them to read/write a single language they can speak. The feat must be taken for each additional language that the character wishes to be literate in.

...
A feat to be literate in a single language is too expensive for my tastes, and I give a feat almost every level.

Core 3.5 has no language checks at all.

Right.

 

[Nellisir]

I reread the Iron Heros skill section, and will probably use alot of it, though not the skill groups. Does anyone here have a pdf copy that they'd be willing to cut & paste the skills section out of and email me? (I have IH in print, which I can verify in any way you'd like, and the entire chapter is OGC). It'd save me quite a few hours of work...


Nell.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I think it can be done, though I'll need an email adress to send the file to.