Twin Shields And Attack Options

[Nazhkandrias]

OK, just because I like playing characters that deviate from what anybody has ever seen, I got to thinking about the Blood-Spiked Charger feat. It basically focuses on the use of shield and armor spikes, especially at the end of a charge. That got me thinking about somebody who didn't just use their shield as a secondary last-ditch weapon, but as a primary choice. And then, it struck me - could somebody technically use two shields at once? It isn't exactly optimal, I know, but the bonus to AC would be nice, considering the fairly decent attack power of a spiked shield bash. Take this feat build into consideration...

10th-Level Fighter

1. Improved Shield Bash
1F. Power Attack
2F. Shield Specialization (heavy shield)
3. Weapon Focus (spiked shield)
4F. Weapon Focus (armor spikes)
6. Agile Shield Fighter
6F. Blood-Spiked Charger
8F. Shield Charge
9. Improved Bull Rush
10F. Shock Trooper

Now, I'm sure that there's a better way to arrange this, but it seems like an interesting build for a 10th-level Fighter (especially with the combination of the two tactical feats, lot of options there). Mainly a Charging build (which might multiclass well with a Charging Smite Paladin or a Barbarian level or two), using mostly shield bashes and a few armor spikes, but what I'm wondering is this - is this even legal? It isn't exactly optimal, but I certainly haven't ever seen a twin-spiked-heavy-shield-and-armor-spike-focused Fighter, well, EVER. It just seems like a really cool and flavorful option, with a decent AC to boot. Well? Is it legal? And if so, anybody have any suggestions (I've been thinking about subbing out Shock Trooper and Imp. Bull Rush for something like Imp. Grapple [for the armor spikes], but if somebody were to take a feat like Cometary Collision later on, that would be a pretty brutal [flavor-wise] Fighter.)?

 

[Elethiomel]

Please note that the AC bonus from the two shields would not stack, as shields give a "shield" bonus to AC, and named bonuses not called "dodge" or explicitly called out as stacking do not stack with bonuses of the same name.

 

[Nazhkandrias]

Aww, damn... Still, this could work. Just a little less focus on the defensive value of the shields, and a little more on offensive techniques, and this is still an interesting (if not sub-optimal) build. Plus, it would make the best whack-splat-skwish sound when you charged and attacked.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

From Wizards Character Optimization Board

I don't usually post builds to the forum, however, after the threads that have come up recently on shield bashing, I decided to add my own variation. Basically just putting together some of my ideas on the subject of a shield bashing character that doesn't necessarily fit the traditional "sword and board" model.

I began with the firm intent to do a primarily fighter build to take advantage of all the myriad feats that exist for shields now. Then I decided that I wanted a few skills, so I might as well throw in some ranger. At that point I didn't have much in the way of extra damage outside of weapon specialization, so that necessitated some Nightsong Enforcer. After that, it seemed silly not to up that with assassin's stance and between one thing and another I ended up with the traditional 2 levels of fighter.


Character Name: Guld "The Bulette" Barattar

Class Build Name: Dwarven Bulette
Preferred Race: Dwarf (Weapon Familiarity - Dwarven Waraxe, Dwarven Buckler-Axe) [optional Mineral Warrior]
Build: Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 2/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Rogue 3/Nightsong Enforcer 10

Prestige Class Requirements:

Nightsong Enforcer
+5 BAB
Hide 10, Move Silently 10
Improved Initiative
Evasion

Exotic Weapon Master
+6 BAB
Proficiency/Weapon Familiarity w/Exotic Weapon
Weapon Focus (Exotic Weapon)


Ability Scores:
Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha
16 16 14 12 10 12 (32 Point Buy)
16 15 14 12 9 8 (25 Point Buy)
18 16 15 13 11 11 (Rolled)
- - - - - - - - - - - -
+ 2 -2 (Racial Adjustments)
--------------------------------------------
16 16 16 12 10 10 (Final Stats - 32 Point Buy)
18 16 20 10 8 8 (Final Stats - Mineral Warrior)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level | Class | Feats | BAB
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level 1: Ranger [Track], Mercantile Background +1
Level 2: Fighter [Axe Focus*] +2
Level 3: Ranger [Two-Weapon Fighting], Imp. Shield Bash +3
Level 4: Fighter [Improved Initiative] +4
Level 5: Warblade +5
Level 6: Warblade Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) +6
Level 7: Exotic W. Master /Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting/ +7
Level 8: Rogue (1d6) +7
Level 9: Rogue Imp. Two-Weapon Fighting +8
Level 10: Rogue (2d6) +9
Level 11: N. Enforcer (3d6) +10
Level 12: N. Enforcer Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) +11
Level 13: N. Enforcer +12
Level 14: N. Enforcer (4d6) +13
Level 15: N. Enforcer Improved Critical (Buckler-Axe) +14
Level 16: N. Enforcer +15
Level 17: N. Enforcer (5d6) +16
Level 18: N. Enforcer Greater Two Weapon Fighting +17
Level 19: N. Enforcer +18
Level 20: N. Enforcer (6d6) +19


Character Skills:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level | 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hide | 4 6 8 9 10
M. Silently| 4 6 8 9 10


Class Abilities:

Maneuvers:
5 - Mountain Hammer (Stone Dragon, Strike)
5 - Disarming Strike (Iron Heart, Strike)
5 - Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond Mind, Counter)
6 - Emerald Razor (Diamond Mind, Strike)
6 - [Cloak of Deception (Shadow Hand, Boost)

Stances:
5 - Leading the Charge (White Raven)
12 - [Assassin's Stance (Shadow Hand)]


Important Items:

Sword Coast Regional Equipment - (5) 50 gp gold bar
Weapons of Choice - (2) +1 keen dwarven buckler-axes of bashing (9,350 gold a piece)


"The Bulette" is mainly named so because of the image that two buckler-axes on a dwarf inspired. Combined with a stubborn, bullish nature and it just seemed appropriate.

Early on, the character can utilize a dwarven waraxe and dwarven buckler-axe for the increased damage. Later, after the level of Exotic Weapon Master, there should be funds for two +1 dwarven buckler-axes of bashing (3,000 gold a piece due to Mercantile Background). Those weapons are primarily where the "bulette" theme comes in, but if you want to take it to extremes, the mineral warrior template grants a nice burrow speed to go along with that.

Once the character has both of these it really starts getting into the gist of the build, beginning to focus upon its two-weapon fighting capabilities. Each weapon deals 2d6+1 damage with a 20/x3 critical. Two-weapon fighting is only at a -1 penalty and you technically have both hands free, so if you wanted to wield a wand or have a ranged weapon available it shouldn't be a problem.

By the end of the build, you should reliably be doing 10d6 damage + Str on 4 attacks with your primary hand and 10d6 + Str/2 on 3 attacks with your off hand between Cloak of Deception and flanking. With 19 BAB you shouldn't have any trouble hitting and if you do, you can always utilize an Emerald Razor strike to use a touch attack. AC and hit points shouldn't be an issue and your saves should be decent with the exception of Will, which is accounted for with a Concentration check built up with ranger and warblade. Additionally, you can double up as a trapfinder and scout for the party, though you would likely need to sacrifice almost everything other than search, disable device, move silently, and hide. For you, open lock is called "Mountain Hammer" strike.

 

[WarShrike]

Isn't there a limit to the number of classes a character can belong to?

WarShrike

 

[Avatar of the North]

Elminster (as published in the 3e FRCS)
ftr 1/rog 2/clr 3/wizard 20/acm 5 (and then epic levels)

The rules never state there is a limit though it is possible to get enough classes that you'll have an xp penalty making advancement impossible

a dwarf rog 1/sorc 3/paladin 5/ranger 7/Wizard 9 could never advance again due to a 100% xp penalty (a human would need 1 more class to pull off this stupidity)

And remember prestige classes dont carry an xp penalty

 

[phindar]

The reason I never pushed for the two shields idea is that even though I like it, it would require a rule change based solely around my character, and I try to stay away from that. Its the type of thing that as a GM I would immediately allow, but as a player I'm not interested in whatever minor amount of arm-twisting would be required to let shield bonuses stack.

And there is the potential for abuse, particularly among monsters with extra arms, like chitines. (It might balance out with a chitine sacrificing attacks for its shield bonuses, but does anyone really want to fight a chitin who's wielding a short sword and three shields? Actually, that does sound kind of cool.) Also, there's animated shields, and if you let shield bonuses stack, you might have a problem with someone loading up on those.

But yeah, get past all that, and a TWF, Imp Shield Bashing guy with two spiked shields is an interesting concept.

 

[Bagpuss]

Please note that the AC bonus from the two shields would not stack, as shields give a "shield" bonus to AC, and named bonuses not called "dodge" or explicitly called out as stacking do not stack with bonuses of the same name.

Yes but if you have Bashing Heavy Spiked shields in each hand and Agile Shield Fighter, who cares about the additional shield AC, as you have two one handed weapons each with a base damage of 2d6+1, and only -2 to attack rolls. It's as good as a Greatsword in each hand (better because even if it was possible some how, the penalties for not having a light weapon would be greater), and you only need to buy Weapons Focus, Specialization, Improved Critical, etc. for one weapon, as opposed to a sword and board character that needs double the feats for less damage output.

 

[Hypersmurf]

a dwarf rog 1/sorc 3/paladin 5/ranger 7/Wizard 9 could never advance again due to a 100% xp penalty (a human would need 1 more class to pull off this stupidity)

That dwarf only has an 80% penalty.

You can do 100% much sooner than that - Rog1/Sor1/Pal1/Rgr1/Wiz1/Brd3 would net the dwarf a 100% penalty - 8th level character. For the human, it would be Rog1/Sor1/Pal1/Rgr1/Wiz1/Brd3/Ftr3, say - 11th level character.

-Hyp.

 

[Elethiomel]

Yes but if you have Bashing Heavy Spiked shields in each hand and Agile Shield Fighter, who cares about the additional shield AC, as you have two one handed weapons each with a base damage of 2d6+1, and only -2 to attack rolls. It's as good as a Greatsword in each hand (better because even if it was possible some how, the penalties for not having a light weapon would be greater), and you only need to buy Weapons Focus, Specialization, Improved Critical, etc. for one weapon, as opposed to a sword and board character that needs double the feats for less damage output.

I know, I'm not saying, "this sucks donkey, man. You should totally forget about the idea and go hide beneath your bed." I'm saying, "it's important to remember that a shield bonus doesn't stack with another shield bonus, so this might not work so well defensively as it looks like." It's still a very viable offensive option, especially since it is one of the more easily accessible ways to be able to power attack both with your main-hand and off-hand weapon. It stops being very effective when secondary and tertiary attacks get significant to-hit bonuses, though, because Agile Shield Fighter doesn't have an "upgrade path" like Two-Weapon Fighting does.