two changes: replacing DR, replacing SR

[EricNoah]

Just tossing some possible house rules around...

SR seems a little redundant to me at times. I'm thinking about getting rid of it completely (except maybe for those creatures for whom it's really part of their "schtick" -- spell immune golems, etc.). I'm wondering if anyone has a different take on it. Some options I see...
1) instead of SR, give the creature a saving throw bonus in the area of +2 to +4 or higher vs. any kind of magic/psionic effect?
2) Allow SR creatures to take 10 on magic-related saves? (I really haven't thought through the implications of this one.)


And similarly, I'm thinking about ditching DR for most creatures (again, except those for whom it really is part of their "schtick" -- golems, lycanthropes, etc.). Some options instead of DR:
a) In exchange I'm thinking about giving some creatures regeneration in the range of 1 to 5 or so. If you're good at math and can show me what a "fair" trade would be (x amount of regeneration is worth y amount of DR) that would be nifty to see. I worry that keeping track of regeneration might be as problematic as keeping track of DR, though.
b) Maybe just give some straight "hardness" and not worry about which materials penetrate it (change DR 5/material to DR 2/--; DR 10/material to DR 5/--, and DR 15/material to DR 8/--). Again, math whizzes feel free to chime in about what makes sense.
c) Most simple of all: give DR creatures more hit points (since DR essentially does that in combat anyway). Either give DR creatures max hp, or give them a set bonus based on size.

 

[whydirt]

Just tossing some possible house rules around...

SR seems a little redundant to me at times. I'm thinking about getting rid of it completely (except maybe for those creatures for whom it's really part of their "schtick" -- spell immune golems, etc.). I'm wondering if anyone has a different take on it. Some options I see...
1) instead of SR, give the creature a saving throw bonus in the area of +2 to +4 or higher vs. any kind of magic/psionic effect?
2) Allow SR creatures to take 10 on magic-related saves? (I really haven't thought through the implications of this one.)

I agree about SR being a bit redundant and think option one is simple and should work just fine.

And similarly, I'm thinking about ditching DR for most creatures (again, except those for whom it really is part of their "schtick" -- golems, lycanthropes, etc.). Some options instead of DR:
a) In exchange I'm thinking about giving some creatures regeneration in the range of 1 to 5 or so. If you're good at math and can show me what a "fair" trade would be (x amount of regeneration is worth y amount of DR) that would be nifty to see. I worry that keeping track of regeneration might be as problematic as keeping track of DR, though.
b) Maybe just give some straight "hardness" and not worry about which materials penetrate it (change DR 5/material to DR 2/--; DR 10/material to DR 5/--, and DR 15/material to DR 8/--). Again, math whizzes feel free to chime in about what makes sense.
c) Most simple of all: give DR creatures more hit points (since DR essentially does that in combat anyway). Either give DR creatures max hp, or give them a set bonus based on size.

I think replacing DR with regeneration or a hardness system would create more work than it would eliminate. I think a simple way to swap out DR would be to increase AC by 1 or 2 for every 5 points of DR.

Out of curiosity, what creatures with DR are giving you this headache?

 

[Andre]

SR:

One thing SR does that a simple bonus to saves does not is allow a creature the potential to shrug off any spell, even one without a save. Also, SR basically says that a more powerful caster is more likely to affect a creature with SR. Combining those two ideas, how about these two changes:

1. Any creature with SR gains a bonus to all saves vs. magical effects of +1 per 5 points of SR (rounded up). So SR 13 would give +3 to saves.

2. Any creature with SR gains a save against any magical effect, even those normally without a save. All bonuses and penalties apply normally to the save. (Potential problem: how to adjudicate spells such as wall of force - can a creature with SR attempt to pass through it by making a save? I would say no, but...)


DR:

Do you want regeneration, or just fast healing? Regeneration is fairly powerful, and a pain to keep track of.

 

[EricNoah]

Out of curiosity, what creatures with DR are giving you this headache?

The change is more for flavor than it is for simplifying anything. I think DR is overused and has lost that special something. Having to have "the right weapon" to damage a creature is fine now and then, but not as frequently as I'm seeing it in the rules. So I'm looking for something that will keep such creatures tough in combat but that isn't overcome by any particular weapon material. (Some of my house rules are for flavor, some are for simplifying things, some are for making things more realistic or plausible and thus probably complicating things!)

I'm leaning toward just giving creatures more HP to simulate the challenge of DR without worrying about special materials.

 

[EricNoah]

Do you want regeneration, or just fast healing? Regeneration is fairly powerful, and a pain to keep track of.

Whichever one deals with just auto-replenishing hit points, and not subdual damage.

 

[Nifft]

There's this Psionic weapon property that deals +5 damage in trade for +2 enhancement equiv. price, so one can conclude that +5 damage roughly equals +2 to attack.

The one thing I really like about DR though is that it makes magic more effective vs. certain critters. Mages get punished with SR, immunities and saving throws, so it's nice to have some critters that are hard for everyone EXCEPT a mage to damage.

-- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

There's this Psionic weapon property that deals +5 damage in trade for +2 enhancement equiv. price, so one can conclude that +5 damage roughly equals +2 to attack.

The one thing I really like about DR though is that it makes magic more effective vs. certain critters. Mages get punished with SR, immunities and saving throws, so it's nice to have some critters that are hard for everyone EXCEPT a mage to damage.

-- N

Not exactly. If you use that logic, +5 damage equates to +2 to hit and damage, not just +2 to hit.

 

[Nifft]

Not exactly. If you use that logic, +5 damage equates to +2 to hit and damage, not just +2 to hit.

Thus, "roughly".

HTH,HAND! -- N

 

[Stalker0]

If your looking to make DR more rare, I would just go with the more hp option.

 

[Arkhandus]

I have to second what Andre mentioned. There are several spells and effects that normally don't allow a saving throw, but do allow Spell Resistance. In 3.5, this includes Scorching Ray, Melf's Acid Arrow, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc. A lot of melee touch and ranged touch spells. And stuff usually doesn't have as high of a touch AC as its total AC, so these touch spells are much more likely to affect, for instance, the Tarrasque, whereas a mage is unlikely to make a spell stick on the Tarrasque if that spell allows a saving throw. Likewise with dragons, titans, giants, and anything else big or stout. Their saving throws may rock, but slapping them with a touch spell is practically like shooting the broad side of a barn. Without Spell Resistance, they'll be zapped to pieces much faster than normal. Mages will forego Fireball and Disintegrate then in favor of Scorching Ray, Polar Ray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Wall of Force, Summon Monster, Melf's Acid Arrow, Shocking Grasp, and so on. With SR still around, they may yet try to land a Disintegrate or Lightning Bolt in the hopes they succeed on their caster level check, and thus waste spells sometimes as opposed to simply always succeeding (as touch spells are usually easy to hit with).

BTW, even if you do allow creatures with SR to instead get a save against any spell, you'd have to determine what type of saving throw. For spells that don't normally allow SR, there's no saving throw type listed. The simplest thing would be to say that either use a Will save, or base it on school. I.E. Abjurations, Enchantments, Illusions, and Divinations are resisted through Will when no save would otherwise be allowed, while Fortitude resists such Transmutations and Necromancies, and Reflex resists Evocations or Conjurations. For example.