two changes: replacing DR, replacing SR

[Plane Sailing]

The key issue of DR is that it affects weak attacks more than strong attacks. Last weekend we fought a clay golem, and didn't have magic adamatine blunt weapons ( no big surprise there!), thus the barbarian could rage and hack at it fro 1d12+9 with his greataxe, but the guy with the crossbow doing 1d8+1 couldn't touch it no matter what.

More hit points would completely change that dynamic.

Fast Healing would allow damage from lesser weapons to be countered more quickly and so could considered to be similar, BUT it is much more bookkeeping.

One option would be to go back to DR x/magic for everything except for the "specials".

What I might be tempted to do is to keep the DR/slashing or DR/blunt etc which is really a structural issue for the creature and ditch all the rest

Spell Resistance - I'd change to a flat percentage chance of working which doesn't depend upon caster level of mage attacking... effectively a "miss chance" for magic. Set the percentage according to what seems right to you - e.g.

SR 1-10 = 10%
SR 11-20 = 20%
SR 21+ = 50%

(I've not looked up the SR spread of critters, I just pulled those numbers out of a flying monkey for illustrative purposes)

Any good?

 

[glass]

Spell Resistance - I'd change to a flat percentage chance of working which doesn't depend upon caster level of mage attacking... effectively a "miss chance" for magic. Set the percentage according to what seems right to you - e.g.

SR 1-10 = 10%
SR 11-20 = 20%
SR 21+ = 50%

(I've not looked up the SR spread of critters, I just pulled those numbers out of a flying monkey for illustrative purposes)

Which, interestingly, is pretty much exactly how it worked in 2e.


glass.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I agree with Arkhandus. Eliminating SR is a step backwards. You are effectively depriving yourself of a set of tools used to balance different spells and allow for a variety of different protection mechanics. If you don't give a saving throw in exchange, it becomes pathetically easy to destroy big creatures that once had high SR with ranged touch spells. On the other hand, giving a save against everything will probably make outsiders and monks with even petty SRs (heck, even SR 1 is enough if that grants saves against no-save spells) very dangerous, at least in 3.5, because it is now very hard to get a decent DC on one's spells and these two groups of creatures have no weak saves.

Because spells that do allow saves are generally lower level for the same effect than those that do not, allowing saves for SR-based creatures will make the save-based spells the best recourse, since these will be slightly more effective now than they would have been if the creature had SR, whereas the no-save spells are weakened significantly. Even so, if its an outsider, there are really no good options.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Well, in 1e/2e it was also modified by caster level, wasn't it.

I think turning SR into a straight "miss chance" for magic, making it analogous to concealment in melee has a lot to commend it.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, in 1e/2e it was also modified by caster level, wasn't it.

I think turning SR into a straight "miss chance" for magic, making it analogous to concealment in melee has a lot to commend it.

No, at least in 2e, it was a straight miss chance. I personally much prefer the flavour of modifying by caster level, so a mighty archmage can always effect the lesser demon, whereas weaker mages struggle overcoming its resistance.

 

[Gez]

Not exactly. If you use that logic, +5 damage equates to +2 to hit and damage, not just +2 to hit.

Simplify!

5 damage = 2 attack + 2 damage
5 damage - 2 damage = 2 attack + 2 damage - 2 damage
3 damage = 2 attack

Therefore, +1 damage is worth a +0.666666666666666666666666667 bonus to attack, and a +1 bonus to attack is worth a +1.5 bonus to damage.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Simplify!

5 damage = 2 attack + 2 damage
5 damage - 2 damage = 2 attack + 2 damage - 2 damage
3 damage = 2 attack

Therefore, +1 damage is worth a +0.666666666666666666666666667 bonus to attack, and a +1 bonus to attack is worth a +1.5 bonus to damage.

Exactly! This is why the elemental enhancements are only balanced by the energy resistant monsters. You'll see the same numbers appear for the +1 enhancement that gives 1d4 ectoplasmic damage (taken at average, you get 2.5 damage instead of 1 to hit and damage). Also, this is why 3.5 Two-Handed Power Attack for +2 is a very good deal...

 

[Plane Sailing]

No, at least in 2e, it was a straight miss chance. I personally much prefer the flavour of modifying by caster level, so a mighty archmage can always effect the lesser demon, whereas weaker mages struggle overcoming its resistance.

Heh, shows that I never played under 2e then! All my prior experience was with 1e and earlier editions.

Mighty wizards could always be given access to high level feats to reduce this SR chance either by half, like blindfight, or by a percentage like nothing else does).

However, if Eric is interested in simplifying SR while still retaining some flavour, I think mine is the best suggestion so far.

Cheers

 

[Philip]

SR is already pretty simple, so simplifying it and adding flavor is a difficult proposition.

I felt SR is just to immutable, it doesn't really fit the 3e system. What I expect from something like SR that you can do things with it similar to AC. You should have the SR equivalents to Flanking, Flat-footed, Prone, Charge and other things which influence your option. As it is now I find SR frankly a bit boring, equivalent to just another type of saving throw.

For example:

- If two (or more) casters hit an enemy with a spell simultaneously (by using a ready action), they both get +2 on their checks to overcome SR. (sort of saturating their SR)

- You can cast a 1 standard action spell as a full round action to gain +2 on SR checks.

- Spells with a descriptor of the opposite type of the target's SR get +2 on checks to overcome SR (good vs. evil, etc.)

etc. etc.

more fun, more flavor, but alas, no simplification....

 

[Stalker0]

Simplify!

5 damage = 2 attack + 2 damage
5 damage - 2 damage = 2 attack + 2 damage - 2 damage
3 damage = 2 attack

Therefore, +1 damage is worth a +0.666666666666666666666666667 bonus to attack, and a +1 bonus to attack is worth a +1.5 bonus to damage.

Well the true way to determine attack versus damage is that +1 to attack increases your average damage by .05 * current average damage. This is assuming your fighting monsters whose ACs allow that +1 to make a difference (ie you don't need a 20 to hit it everytime, and you don't always hit on anything except a 1).

So if my barb is doing 20 damage on average, a +1 to attack increases my average damage by 1.