Two hander style gets the axe shaft!

[kreynolds]

why not?

Two reasons, though Morose was pretty close, though he was kinda morose about it. <badoom-boom>

1) As a Tempest, a prestige class that is nothing special in it's own right, as it's pretty unimaginative (I use a 5 level version in my campaigns), you can get 4 attacks with your off-hand easily, and before you hit epic level, no less. So there's absolutely nothing so special about a 4th attack with your off-hand that justifies it being an epic feat.

2) Now, I don't know where I stand on the whole "All feats should be equal thing", but as a feat, there's just no logical reason, nor play-balance reason, that I can see that justifies it being an epic feat. In the grand ol' scheme o' things, it just doesn't destroy the game or upset it if it were a regular feat. I should know. I've had a non-epic version of it in all of my games ever since my greedy little eyes saw the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Harsh...

Dosn't that feat have a prerequisite? If growing up only costs one, then you should see it more often.


As to two handed style needing saved, uhm...

Creatures with DR. An unexpected threat could lead to several rounds without a caster being able to cast magic weapon, and a dispel magic will get rid of an enchanted blade for a few rounds. Many DR creatures can cast that spell, notably demons and devils. And objects have hardness that can't be overrun.

Whirlwind attack. You get ONE attack at your highest bonus on everyone next to you. Instead of d6 or d8 + STR, you get d10, d12, or 2d6 at STR x 1.5.

With Superior Cleave and Superior Whirlwind Attack, or even lesser versions, you could conceivably get more attacks than even a Tempest.

Few one handed weapons have a x3 crit, and none have a times 4. This is even scarier when you put in 1.5 STR mod.

Smite. Better to have that damage on one weapon, especially if it crits.

Power critical. Counts for one attack per day, on one wepon. Better crit. multiplier and 1.5 STR makes it more effective.

Supernatural Blow. The more dice your weapon does, the more dice it gets on this feat.

Investment. Unless you are using the same weapon in both hands, you have to buy feats like Wep. Weapon Focus and Improved Critical twice, not to mention Ambi/TWF, and the advancement feats. Even then you will have penalties to attack unless you are epic or ahigh level Tempest.

Enhancement investment. I don't think anyone is going to be satisfied with a +4, Keen, Wounding Weapon in one hand, and a Master work weapon in the other. Also fewer buffing spells on just your weapons.

Just a Quick list. Sorry if I repeated anything. I was at work and started my reply when there were 3 or 4 posts.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Harsh...

Dosn't that feat have a prerequisite?

No.

If growing up only costs one, then you should see it more often.

Exactly. Thus the problem.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Excellent list, J_B.

But you forgot the obvious...

Standard Action: It is better to charge into battle and get a single attack with a Large weapon with 1.5xStr than a Medium one with 1.0xStr.

Spring Attack: See Standard Action.


I am afraid I have trouble seeing a problem with a character spending 3-4 feats being better than the guy who spent 0 feats some of the time. Call me crazy...

 

[coyote6]

A parenthetical aside

Few one handed weapons have a x3 crit, and none have a times 4.

FWIW, picks, both light and heavy, have x4 crits; as Small and Medium-size weapons, they ought to qualify as "one-handed weapons". The only Large x4 crit multiplier weapon in the PH is the scythe.

BTW, kreynolds, I think the Rules Council would reject your feat as being too unrealistic, even for D&D.

PS: Ridley's Cohort, you're crazy!

(Hey, you told me to.)

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Oops, Missed one. I don't see many people using two picks, though.

I was also refering to the weapons in sword and fist.

Charging gets even better with the feat that alows you to use x2 STR mod. I forget the name.

Hey Ridley, I can't quite tell what your last line meant, but I am far from a dual weapon hater. The point that keeps poping up about energy weapons is very valid, especially since it bypasses DR. To get really scary using either method would require a lot of feats that work well together. I do think that two weapon fighting does require more feats to be effective, though, both early on and as extras, such as Pin Shield.

I know it is considered a litle "vanilla", but my favorite is sword and shield, for the AC. I prefere not to get hit.

 

[kreynolds]

I don't see many people using two picks, though.

A Fighter/Rogue Half-Orc in one of my games uses 2 Keen picks with Improved Critical, and let me tell you, I rarely see such devastation.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: A parenthetical aside

BTW, kreynolds, I think the Rules Council would reject your feat as being too unrealistic, even for D&D.

That's because they haven't taken the feat either.

 

[Skarnkai]

This problem pops up in a lot of games .. especially in 2nd edition.

Basically if one big attack does equal damage to 2 smaller attacks, then the balance goes to the 2 attacks... because there is a middle ground on the 2 weapon style, unlike the 2hder.

And yes Feat's factor into this as well. Shields have been given some extra feat power (putting them roughly on par with the other styles).

There should be some more 2-handed weapon feats that aren't so specialized (like Knock-Down, Sunder, Cleave/Great Cleave/Supreme Cleave or Whirlwind).

 

[Numion]

My two cents:

Because the iterative attacks are less likely to hit, greater two weapon fighting and perfect two weapon fighting are pretty crappy. Compare to rapid shot for example, which gives an extra attack at the highest bonus -2.

Thorough playtesting should always be done before bitching. We have done it, and TWF is a bit weaker than THW style. YMMV, of course