Two hands for a spear?

[Steve Jung]

And why does the spear have a range increment? It's the only two-handed weapon you can throw. I can't find any rules on throwing two-handed weapons. There were some in 3.0 but I don't see them in 3.5. Do you throw a spear two-handed. I can't picture it. Unless it was like a caber or the Celtic foot-throw. That's just silly.

From the SRD:

Chapter 7: Weapons/Weapon Categories/Melee and Ranged Weapons/Thrown Weapons
Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.

 

[0bsolete]

Heh. A 1d8/x2 weapon feels vicious, so he'd rather use the 1d8/x3 weapon that has a chance of doing real damage on a critical

-Hyp.

Pretty much.

But on a more serious note, a trident DOES feel viscious. A three pronged spear, frequently with hooks made so that they hold on into flesh and can only be effectively torn out. It can't be broken off and pushed through like a spear, and its original use was to stab into large fish or other sea creatures and lift them out until they suffocated or bled to death, whichever comes first.

The spear is more of a cheaply made stick with a metal point on top used to cheaply arm large amounts of people.

Though the stats don't show that.

 

[jaelis]

Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.

If you read the entire paragraph, however, it sounds to me like that statement refers only to throwing weapons that cannot normally be thrown:

Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

The sentences both before and after are pretty clearly referring to throwing melee weapons only.

But on a more serious note, a trident DOES feel viscious. A three pronged spear, frequently with hooks made so that they hold on into flesh and can only be effectively torn out. It can't be broken off and pushed through like a spear, and its original use was to stab into large fish or other sea creatures and lift them out until they suffocated or bled to death, whichever comes first.

You can always use the stats of the trident and change the flavor to a spear.

 

[irdeggman]

If you read the entire paragraph, however, it sounds to me like that statement refers only to throwing weapons that cannot normally be thrown:

The sentences both before and after are pretty clearly referring to throwing melee weapons only.

And a spear is a two handed melee weapon correct?

 

[Steve Jung]

If you read the entire paragraph, however, it sounds to me like that statement refers only to throwing weapons that cannot normally be thrown:

The sentences both before and after are pretty clearly referring to throwing melee weapons only.

And a spear is a two handed melee weapon correct?

That's what I figured too.

 

[jaelis]

And a spear is a two handed melee weapon correct?

No, it is not (only) a melee weapon, since it has a range increment listed. The parenthetical comment indicates that the discussion is about melee weapons that do not have range increments listed.

It is not perfectly clear from the language whether the following lines refer to throwing weapons that do not have range increments, or to throwing weapons in general. However, if you think they are about throwing weapons in general, then you would conclude that all thrown weapons have a range of 10 ft, which is certainly not true.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Actually, your thinking only the phalanx style fighting. The Greek iconic solo hero also used a shield and spear, even alone. Telemachus, Odysseus, even Achilles. Multiple mounted warriors through history have also used spears, and on the back of a horse you can't really use it two handed, though many used their hip as support. Not used for slashing, only thrusting, mostly kept at the side and thrust outward and forward more than anything. Light wooden handle with a fairly small metal tip. True, not the most graceful weapon, but I would expect it could be used by somebody with formal military training in one hand couldn't it?

Let me reinforce this

Throughout history and even prehistory the spear has actually been the preeminent weapon of muscle-powered cultures. The sword was as much status symbol as weapon, axes have their own drawbacks. But the *pointy stick* has been killing people for a long time. Just ask the ~450000 year old hardened wood spear kept in a vault in a German museum, it's the oldest weapon ever discovered and traces of hominid blood are still embedded in the point.

The Greeks used spears primarily, even in single combat. Their swords were more a backup for when the spear broke. And bronze spears break a lot, then again so do bronze swords and bronze armor. The Vikings were primarily armed with the spear, as were the early legions of the Roman Republic, every force in the classical empires that actually was armed, most all of the nomadic horse peoples. In short wherever you find humans you find the pointy stick, it's been our friend longer than dogs. They just have too many advantages over other weapons for it to be any other way.

Before the invention of the stirrup spears were NOT used on horseback the way seen in medieval jousting. Instead they were held high over the head with the point downward so that the rider could put the weight of his upper body behind the thrust without knocking himself off his horse. Only after stirrups did you see the low positioning, as before it would have been certain to unhorse the user.

 

[irdeggman]

No, it is not (only) a melee weapon, since it has a range increment listed. The parenthetical comment indicates that the discussion is about melee weapons that do not have range increments listed.

It is not perfectly clear from the language whether the following lines refer to throwing weapons that do not have range increments, or to throwing weapons in general. However, if you think they are about throwing weapons in general, then you would conclude that all thrown weapons have a range of 10 ft, which is certainly not true.

Well spears are melee weapons that are designed to also be thrown, thus bridging into these two categories. (text from rules compendium pg 150)

It also goes on to pretty much reproduce the other text but the layout makes it appear much clearer. That the:

"Throwing a light or on-handed melee weapon that isn't designed to be thrown is a standard action, and throwing a two-handed weapon that isn't desgined to be thrown is a full-round action."

So that makes it clear, IMO, that those requirements only apply to melee weapons that are not designed to be thrown. Thus I would say that a weapon that is designed to be thrown follows the normal rules - a standard action for a single attack (unless the weapons itself has other text).

 

[Jhaelen]

But on a more serious note, a trident DOES feel viscious. A three pronged spear, frequently with hooks made so that they hold on into flesh and can only be effectively torn out. It can't be broken off and pushed through like a spear, and its original use was to stab into large fish or other sea creatures and lift them out until they suffocated or bled to death, whichever comes first.

IMHO a spear is just as clearly designed to be a weapon, having an origin as a hunting device, as well.

I'd simply use the trident stats and modify the description slightly. The three-pronged tip doesn't really have to be pronounced. There's really nothing about a trident that requires it.