Two pounce versions?

[Pielorinho]

first of all don't you get to make an AoA against a person that is charging. they are running into a 5' square that you threaten right?

Well, yeah. But AoO's are never incurred by moving into a threatened square. They're incurred by moving out of a threatened square (except under certain circumstances). So unless you have a reach weapon and they don't, you don't get an AoO against someone charging you. (if you have reach and they don't, then when they move from 10' away to 5' away, they're moving out of a square you threaten and therefore suffer an AoO). (Unless they have spring attack or something. But let's not muddy the waters).

I'm suggesting that the revised pounce is too powerful unless it comes with a drawback: I'm saying that the pounce itself ought to incur an AoO, or else that the pouncer should lose all dex bonus when pouncing.

I know already that my tiger companion deals more pain than some of the fighters in the party -- improved grab and rake by themselves are nasty abilities. I think buffing up the pounce ability would make it obscene. Adding a risk to pouncing might balance that out.

Daniel

 

[kreynolds]

They're incurred by moving out of a threatened square

Or within.

 

[IceBear]

a bunch of monsters may not be smart enough to keep running and pouncing, but they can certainly charge after felling their current opponent ...

or would that be considered a seperate combat?

Well, I think they are trying to simulate a lioness or cheetah running down a gazelle with this. The lioness runs down the gazelle and pounces on it. I don't see why, if it wanted to, the lioness couldn't then chase down another gazelle and pounce on it right away. They don't do that because they're satisfied with the one gazelle, which is how it would play out in my game. If a lioness pounced on a PC she's not going to go chasing after someone else until either her or the PC is dead, and even if she killed the PC she has her food so she's not going to bother chasing any of the other PCs. She might defend herself, but she won't pounce as a matter of course.

All that said, the once per combat ruling might have been to simulate that this attack takes a lot of energy from the cat so it might need to rest between attacks. However, there is nothing keeping the cat from charging more than once per combat so since they didn't say a cat couldn't charge more than once per combat, limiting the pounce this way doesn't really work for me.

Your question about whether that's a new combat or not is exactly why I like the new rules as it removes this ambiguous decision.

Granted, this can be abused when someone with intelligence directs the animal's actions, but so can a lot of other rules, so this is nothing new. Anyway, if you stay within 10ft of the cat it can't charge you, and so it can't pounce on you

IceBear

 

[Dark Dragon]

I agree. But it was poorly worded in the MM I and the druid's wild shape wasn't taken into account (ok, that was errated later in the MoW).

 

[Pielorinho]

Or within.

Do you mean moving within a threatened area? Moving within a threatened square doesn't normally provoke an AoO.

If you move within a threatened area, you're likely to provoke an AoO (if you move more than 5', that is) -- but i think the reason for this is that when you move from one threatened square to another threatened square, you're leaving a threatened square -- and that's what provokes the AoO.

Another possible ruling for the pounce ability would be that it can only be done once per combat; this might be the best balance.

Daniel

 

[IceBear]

Hey Dan,

I think he might be referring to the ruling that moving into the square that someone occupies will generate an AoO even if it's only a 5ft step, a la Bull Rush.

Once per combat might be a good solution. As I said, that's more or less how it works in my campaign right now, and this would prevent abuse by druids and animal companions.

IceBear

 

[Dark Dragon]

:snip:

Another possible ruling for the pounce ability would be that it can only be done once per combat; this might be the best balance.

Daniel

Huh? Ok, we would be nearly where we started... Hmm, I don't see a big shift in balance if you use the MM II version for pounce. If a group is attacked by monsters with (the new) pounce ability, they should engage them in melee combat quickly to deny more charges. Weapons especially made against charging opponents would be great also, e. g. longspears.
If you think the druid would become too powerful with the new pounce, one shouldn't forget that a wild shaped druid has a bad AC and will receive damage quite quickly when fighting two or more opponents.

 

[IceBear]

It's not *exactly* where we started. The original start was only allowed in the first round of combat (which confused some people), but this would allow the cat to pounce at any time during the encounter, but only once. I'm probably going to just go with the MM2 version, but if it ever gets out of hand, this would be how I'd nerf it.

IceBear

 

[Pielorinho]

Huh? Ok, we would be nearly where we started... Hmm, I don't see a big shift in balance if you use the MM II version for pounce. If a group is attacked by monsters with (the new) pounce ability, they should engage them in melee combat quickly to deny more charges. Weapons especially made against charging opponents would be great also, e. g. longspears.
If you think the druid would become too powerful with the new pounce, one shouldn't forget that a wild shaped druid has a bad AC and will receive damage quite quickly when fighting two or more opponents.

DD, my concern with the original pounce isn't its power level -- I think it's plenty powerful under the MMI version. My concern with it is that it's arbitrary: there's no cinematic reason (as opposed to game-mechanic reason) why a tiger can pounce an enemy that surprises it, but can't stalk an enemy while its companions are fighting the same enemy and then pounce in the third or fourth round of the combat.

And it's true that an animal's main weakness is its AC. But that's why the party druid buys a wand of mage armor for the party wizard and receives a pop off of it before entering the dungeon; that's why the party cleric casts cat's grace on the tiger. A first-level and a second-level spell bump the tiger's AC up by 5-7 points, making it considerably tougher.

Daniel

 

[kreynolds]

Do you mean moving within a threatened area?

Yeah. I misread your post. My bad.