Two quick thoughts about all these new fangled base classes . . .

[Nyaricus]

You know you just described the Aristocrat NPC class, right?

Yeah, pretty much

My player is happy though, and so and I, so no big deal (if you are implyign there is one?? )

cheers,
--N

 

[Sejs]

You know you just described the Aristocrat NPC class, right?

Well, the Arisocrat tuned up to not haul the "NPC Class Must = Suck" line, but yeah.

I faced something similar in my current campaign. Traded trapfinding for the changeling racial sub 'social intuition' ability (even though the game's not in Eberron and the character's not a changeling, it just fit), and swapped evasion for bardic knowledge. Replaced SA with feats.

Still need to come up with a sensible replacement for trap sense, though.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...I'm sure he's going to tell me how he never could have built his concept out of core classes from the PH...

Believe it or not, there are PC concepts that are simultaneously non-munchkinny and not buildable with 3.x PHB classes without significant houseruling, alternative rules, or DM alteration.

Heck, some are not buildable within D&D's class system.

 

[Celebrim]

Believe it or not, there are PC concepts that are simultaneously non-munchkinny and not buildable with 3.x PHB classes without significant houseruling, alternative rules, or DM alteration.

I see this as a fault of overly narrow base classes (monk, ranger, druid, paladin, barbarian, and to a lesser extent rogue strike me as particular concepts not classes). The variants should be built into base much the same way that 3rd edition clerics manage to bundle together dozens of 2nd edition speciality priest classes into a tight package, only well more so. A more robust feat system and selection could do almost all the rest.

The proliferation of base classes is cludgy in the same way that 1st and 2nd edition became unwieldy. It was easier and more profitable to keep printing supplements than it was to fix the core problem.

As for non-classed concepts, I await the 'Aging Martial Arts Master' as a 20 level class too.

Looking into the future, I see people looking back to this period and asking, "With what base class did WotC jump the shark?" I put my money on Paladin. BotR's Holy Warrior is a good example of what sort of path they should have taken the Champion in.

I guess the good side of all these dead trees is that they are good learning experiences for the designers.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The variants should be built into base much the same way that 3rd edition clerics manage to bundle together dozens of 2nd edition speciality priest classes into a tight package, only well more so. A more robust feat system and selection could do almost all the rest.

Funny you should mention the Cleric- the PC I had in mind was actually a Player's Option cleric I ran in 2Ed. It is, as yet, untranslatable into 3.x.

The problems that bar the translation of the concept would probably not be soluable via feats, since it would involve swapping out certain base features of the class (like Turning Undead) for others, as well as eliminating a huge number of spells and adding others.

And before anyone scoffs about "OH-a Players Option Priest! No munchkin stuff in THERE!" - the PC had only 3 offensive spells in his repetoir, 2 of which were buffs that potentially improved those around him better than they improved himself, none were higher than 3rd level.

The closest analogue would be a Cleric of Fharlanghn with fewer cleric spells (but more than 2 domains), access to arcane Abjuration spells, Chainmail, a Maul, and a Bow who could Inspire Rage.

BotR's Holy Warrior is a good example of what sort of path they should have taken the Champion in.

While I have no particular dislike of the Paladin, BotR's section on Holy Warriors is, I agree, far superior, at least in terms of its flexibility.

 

[Elephant]

Funny you should mention the Cleric- the PC I had in mind was actually a Player's Option cleric I ran in 2Ed. It is, as yet, untranslatable into 3.x.

The problems that bar the translation of the concept would probably not be soluable via feats, since it would involve swapping out certain base features of the class (like Turning Undead) for others, as well as eliminating a huge number of spells and adding others.

And before anyone scoffs about "OH-a Players Option Priest! No munchkin stuff in THERE!" - the PC had only 3 offensive spells in his repetoir, 2 of which were buffs that potentially improved those around him better than they improved himself, none were higher than 3rd level.

The closest analogue would be a Cleric of Fharlanghn with fewer cleric spells (but more than 2 domains), access to arcane Abjuration spells, Chainmail, a Maul, and a Bow who could Inspire Rage.

While I have no particular dislike of the Paladin, BotR's section on Holy Warriors is, I agree, far superior, at least in terms of its flexibility.

Okay, so there are a few 2e-specific things in that character that don't translate to 3e. What's the *concept* behind the character, though? IMO, describing a few class features does not a concept make.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Whereas I think it has more to do with the fact that WotC has to turn out something to protect thier phony baloney jobs.

Gee, all the jobs laying down hot asphalt on the freeway were taken.

What do you want them to do instead? Fast until 4E comes out?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The core concept was a cleric from a Northern warrior culture based on Finno-Russian legend, particularly from the Kalevala.

As a result, he could not have flashy offensive magic. At all.

Magic from those legends- at least, from the heroes- was protective, elemental/nature based. This eliminates a lot of big divine spells- no Flame Strikes, no Creeping Dooms. Instead, you might take on an animal's strength, or ward your allies against harm. Perhaps, if you were powerful and had friends among the 4 winds (air-elementals), you could fly. Even the healing magic was greatly subdued. In game terms, most of what the PC had access to on the clerical side was capped at 3th level- those he had Major Access to were largely the "less powerful" spheres like Guardian or Travellers.

Because of his culture, he was as home in the woods as anywhere else- think somewhere between Fafhrd & Strider. Thus, his fighting skill was better than the typical Cleric, but since he depended upon stealth & mobility, he could only wear lighter armors- nothing better than chainmail or hide.

Because of his duties to his people in time of war, he Inspired Rage rather than Turned Undead...and by rule, that required 3 rounds of chanting.

(Inspire Rage was a bit of a stretch- it had no analog in Finno-Russian legend, but Undead are completely absent from what I've read of their legends, and there was no more appropriate use for the character build points. There were no more Spheres or Schools appropriate to the concept, heavier armor was inappropriate, and he already fought as well as he could.)

 

[Felix]

The core concept was a cleric from a Northern warrior culture based on Finno-Russian legend, particularly from the Kalevala.

As a result, he could not have flashy offensive magic. At all.

Magic from those legends- at least, from the heroes- was protective, elemental/nature based. This eliminates a lot of big divine spells- no Flame Strikes, no Creeping Dooms. Instead, you might take on an animal's strength, or ward your allies against harm. Perhaps, if you were powerful and had friends among the 4 winds (air-elementals), you could fly. Even the healing magic was greatly subdued. In game terms, most of what the PC had access to on the clerical side was capped at 3th level- those he had Major Access to were largely the "less powerful" spheres like Guardian or Travellers.

I don't exactly understand what you're after with this, but how do you think the sorcerer's "witch" variant spell list in the DMG fits this? It's certainly elemental and nature based, and is not flashy by design; there is healing, but nothing like a Cleric gets. Actually, it's one of my favorite spell lists out there.

And a "priest" in-character need not be a divine caster in game terms; a fighter could be a priest with some ranks in Know(religion). If you do want the magic side, 7 of the 11 core classes do get spells.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The Witch list would be more appropriate, but still contains elements that are far from the core concept- like nearly the entire 5th level section and half of the 7th.

And, of course, is an alternative rule from the base.

Part of the problem is this- as the 2 Ed PC progressed in his single class, his potential spell list continued to shrink. While he'd still get full cleric level-based adjustments on some of his stuff, there would be fewer and fewer spells to choose from.

Lets assume 20 levels.

After 3rd level, for instance, about half of his Spheres would provide no further spells to select from. Meanwhile, his Inspire Rage and his access to other spells (and their autoscaling) would continue to improve over the 20 levels, including his Abjuration spells.

To do this in 3rd edition, he'd need 2 full-caster divine classes, one of which he'd have to stop progression in at about 6th level while continuing to advance in the other (to mimic the breadth and shallowness of his access to certain spells)- probably Cleric and either the OA or Kingdom of Kalamar Shaman because they better reflect the animist aspects of Finno-Russian mythology. (The KoK one is a better fit.) Meanwhile, he'd need at least 4 levels of an arcane spellcasting class to make Mystic Theurge viable, but he'd need at least 4 levels in that first divine casting class (the one in which he's not limited)- but that just leaves 6 levels for MT. He'll max out with 5th level spells in those 2 classes linked to his MT levels.

This is NOT the PC who was talking to Air Elementals to fly, and we still haven't addressed the Inspire Rage substituting for Turn Undead, or his ranger-esque abilities, etc.

It is also (obviously) not a build that is pure Core.

As for the non-caster priest, that also doesn't fit the concept- almost all of the heroes of the Kalevala are spellcasters of some kind, in D&D terms.