Two quick thoughts about all these new fangled base classes . . .

shurai said:
The interesting thing about the new proliferation of base classes and the constant explosion of prestige classes, to me, is that the game seems to be converging on something that D&D has always been dead-set against: Not having any classes at all.

Hear me out.

As the number of base classes (and prestige classes, feats, and spells) grows, the number of ways to define a character increases. Eventually, one reaches a point at which a character can have just about any combination of traits, with the only restrictions being those nominally enforced by the character's level. It's total freedom, provided you're willing to navigate the large and expensive collection of crunchbooks.

So, at that point, when your class really doesn't matter at all anymore, do you still have a class?

I agree. The proliferation of new base and prestige classes essentially means that there's no point in having a class-based system to begin with.

There can be several reasons for having a class-based system:

1. Simplicity of character generation when compared to a "universal" system.

2. It's a way of placing limitations on the system, in order to present a particular feel and keep things from being overly generic.

3. It keeps a sacred cow alive.

The first two are clearly no longer a factor.

Character creation can still be simple, but if you actually do try to examine all the options before you, you'll likely end up flipping through the feat and PrC sections of half a dozen books, if not more.

At the same time, it seems to me - as a bitter old man of 29 - that more and more people seem to think that playing an "original" character is actually about having the tools to shoehorn whatever hackneyed concept they came across in a movie, CRPG or (maybe) a fantasy book into the game in mechanical terms, and consider any attempts on the part of the DM to strive for a consistent feel to his world as being unreasonably controlling.

So there's really no logical reason to even have classes any longer. Bring on character points, price out various things - BAB, saves, spell levels, feats, skill points - and let people make whatever they want.

Of course, that won't sell supplements, so it's not going to happen, but from my point of view, trying to keep up with the various supplements is a colossal waste of time and money. I just want to play and DM, and I'm sick of trying to follow all the new developments. It's a waste of time I could be spending making my game better.
 

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RangerWickett said:
I do hope 4th edition makes three very basic base classes - Expert, Mage, and Warrior - that have tons of options and flexibility, designed to let you multiclass them to create almost any character idea; and then include 10+ classes that examples of premade progressions of those abilities, and maybe 2 or 3 classes that are examples of bending the rules a bit because not everything can be codified into generic classes.

Core Three
Expert - gets lots of skill options. For this to work, skill checks need to be more useful than magic a lot of the time; make knock and spiderclimb not automatically open locks or succeed climb checks.
Mage - gets lots of magic options, and can either cast spells (of various varieties - arcane, divine, natural) or have innate supernatural abilities.
Warrior - gets lots of combat options, ranging from fighter feats to barbarian rage to some of the low-key Book of Nine Swords stuff.

Ten Examples
Berserker (warrior with rage feats)
Cleric (mage/warrior with divine magic)
Druid (mage with nature magic and a variety of supernatural abilities)
Fighter (iconic D&D warrior, with heavy armor and no flash)
Mageknight (mage/warrior with arcane magic)
Monk (warrior with mild innate supernatural abilities granted via the mage class)
Rogue (iconic D&D expert, with dungeon-delving feats)
Swashbuckler (warrior tweaked out for nimbleness)
Warlock (mage with no spells but lots of supernatural abilities)
Wizard (iconic D&D magic-user, with spellbook and familiar)

Three Oddities
Artificer (expert who has the ability to create magic items)
Bard (pseudo-mage/expert with a unique musical ability)
Champion (powerful mage/warrior with bonus defenses as long as he is morally pure)


The problem is, modularity doesn't sell sourcebooks. Sourcebooks want you to not create your own things.

You do realize we have exactly this already in 3.x in UA, right? Just talk your group into using it.
 

Andor said:
You do realize we have exactly this already in 3.x in UA, right? Just talk your group into using it.

UA is the bare bones idea that inspired me to it, yeah. But the UA generic classes were tacked on to an existing ruleset, instead of being used as a baseline.
 

RangerWickett said:
I do hope 4th edition makes three very basic base classes - Expert, Mage, and Warrior - that have tons of options and flexibility, designed to let you multiclass them to create almost any character idea; and then include 10+ classes that examples of premade progressions of those abilities, and maybe 2 or 3 classes that are examples of bending the rules a bit because not everything can be codified into generic classes.

Do it either this way, or even better, I think, the d20 Modern way: base class for each ability score and easy to acquire PrCs to help define the chraracter.
 

Chainsaw Mage said:
<snip>...something like this: "You can't add new base classes, you @#$(*# idiot! You'll wreck the f**king game! Add prestige classes if you want, but NEVER add base classes!"

Heh heh. Those idiots from rec.games.frp.dnd must be pulling out their hair at the roots these days. Heh heh.<snip>

That's pretty much the way most discussions on rec.games.frp.dnd go. You didn't get any special treatment. It's bad form, but that's what happens when people post whatever profanity or insults they want figuring they'll never meet the target in real life.

Thanks,
Rich
 

Lets see. Light armor. Stealth and mobility as options, non-flashy magic. Some healing, but not as much as a standard cleric. Inspirational abilities. That sounds like he should have been a bard in 3e terms, or maybe some sort of bard multiclass. Sure the bard class is not explicitly religious, but the arcane/divine split is just flavor for the most part anyway.

Although you're absolutely correct in your instincts on one level- much of Kalevala magic is based in "songs of power"- Bard wouldn't really have captured the flavor (though the KoK Spellsinger might, or possibly the ToM Binder).

He is stealthy & mobile, but more in the woodsman sense. The skills & weapon list should be more akin to that of the ranger- like the heroes of the Kalevala, he is supposed to be largely self-sufficient, able to survive in the wilderness all alone if he has to. A mighty warrior as well as spellcaster. Had it not been for the Player's Option book, the likely build would have been Rgr/Cleric/MU, though that would not have been ideal (mainly because the PC would have too many spells that are too flashy).

As for the arcane/divine split, most people in our group- myself among them- don't consider the divide to be trivial.


The problem is that you and I have such a different idea of what a character concept is, that we are never going to remotely agree on this.

That's kind of judgemental. Give me a try- I might surprise you.
The closest analogue would be a Cleric of Fharlanghn with fewer cleric spells (but more than 2 domains), access to arcane Abjuration spells, Chainmail, a Maul, and a Bow who could Inspire Rage.

Which is not I would note actually a concept.

That was not the concept, that was translating the concept into game terms. The concept was (as I stated):

a cleric from a Northern warrior culture based on Finno-Russian legend, particularly from the Kalevala.

To expand upon that, the PC was more or less on a "missionary" trip- exploring the warmer climes south of his people's territory, seeking knowledge of culture and science- anything to improve things for his village...and because of his youth, adventure along the way.

Hogwash. The exact spell list might be difficult, but the rest of what you mention is easy

IF your DM allows the use of alternative rules or lets you customize things, which is not guaranteed.

In point of fact, most of the DMs in our group do not use alternative rules, do not tweek classes. Even on those occasions when we can use books beyond the core, we don't get to use classes beyond those in the PHB.

(I'm one of 2 exceptions to this, but I'm not interested in running this as an NPC.)

...With the exception of the giving up turning undead for inspire rage, you could do that in my campaign as it is using just the house rules I've already got, and I while I'd have to think about it giving up turning undead for inspire rage sounds close to balanced so I'd happily consider that a new player option.

But none of that is a concept nor do I see how any of that is essential to a concept. It sounds to me alot more like a shopping list of abilities.

Which, as we both point out, involves a lot of customizations and HRs that are not Core, thus may not be available, which was my initial point:

...there are PC concepts that are simultaneously non-munchkinny and not buildable with 3.x PHB classes without significant houseruling, alternative rules, or DM alteration.

(emphasis mine)
Furthermore, since you weren't there, you don't know: I asked to have certain abilities (like the tracking, Move silently, and Hide) limited to wilderness environs, but the DM refused.

The "shopping list of abilities" reflected the aspects common to many characters of Finno-Russian legends- powerful in battle, capable of singing great songs of power (in game terms, both arcane & divine). Its an animist type of magic, reflected more in classes like the OA or KoK Shaman than the PHB cleric.

The way clerics handle spell lists with domains is about as ideal as flexible spell access can be made.

Not as flexible as the Spheres in 2Ed Players Option.
But something which gave a divine spell caster access to a whole arcane school of spells sounds to me to be right out simply because the access to a presumably stronger spell list is the only thing arcane spell casters have going for them.

While you're right, and the PO rules weren't perfect, access to Abjuration by a cleric wasn't anywhere near game-breaking.

The failure of PO in this regard was that, unlike the way Spheres were handled- the better/more powerful the Sphere, the more it cost, so that Minor access (no spell higher than 3rd) to Combat or Healing cost as much as Major access (full access) to Guardian or Travelers*- all schools of wizardry were priced identically. Divination or Abjuration would cost as much as Evocation or Conjuration.

* Pricing was based upon a combination of the power of the individual spells and the absolute number of spells within the Sphere- some only had a few spells over 3rd level.

So there's really no logical reason to even have classes any longer. Bring on character points, price out various things - BAB, saves, spell levels, feats, skill points - and let people make whatever they want.

That would be a 3.X version of Player's Option- which I, for one, would support.

Of course, that won't sell supplements, so it's not going to happen, but from my point of view, trying to keep up with the various supplements is a colossal waste of time and money.It's a waste of time I could be spending making my game better.

It sold 4 hardcover books in 2Ed, I don't see why it wouldn't work for 3.X.

Instead of new base classes and PrCls, each supplement would present new options and how they would be priced for each class.

++++
Re: Paladins
What does such a character give you that a Fighter/Cleric does not?

Well, full BAB, for one.
 
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RangerWickett said:
UA is the bare bones idea that inspired me to it, yeah. But the UA generic classes were tacked on to an existing ruleset, instead of being used as a baseline.

The trouble (I feel) with such a system is that it's very hard to then portray those classes whose powers are a serious departure from the norm. For example a Binder or even a Soulknife is hard to do, especially if you're also eliminating PrCs. A class like a warlock, or an artificer, is not just a bunch of feats or a varient spell list, it's a character that approachs the standard set of problems that a character must face from a different angle, and requires some attention to balance.

The class system in D&D right now is a little confused. You basically have the same system covering three different things.

A) Portraying the gamist abilities of a character whose role may have little to do with the actual classes involved. - Almost all of the mundane classes fall under this category. An 'expert locksmith' might be a rogue, or an expert, or a spellthief. A 'Powerful Noble' could be an aristocrat, a fighter, a rogue, a swashbuckler, or even a commoner and it would make little difference. This is the d20 Modern approach.

B) Portraying the gamist abilities of a character whose role and class are the same thing. Almost all of the spellcasting classes fall into this category. A 'powerful exorcist' pretty much has to be a cleric. He might be a paladin, but he's bucking the system to the detriment of his primary role. This is oldschool D&D approach.

C) Fleshing out the gamist abilities of a character who supplements his primary role with some supernatural powers. This is mostly the realm of PrCs like the Assassin or Shadowblade, but includes some base classes like the Ninja. This is pretty much new to 3.x although 2es kits dabbled in this, and it's the meat and potatos of most point buy systems.

A lot of internet arguments are spawned by these different roles and which one you think should be dominant.
 


Dannyalcatraz,

A bit of-topic, but from what you have written here I would port your cleric as a Ranger with minor changes to the class skills, drop the Animal Companion and Ranger spells, and add a half-caster level progression in an Elements of Magic Kalevalaian tradition :)

{EoM would include the abjurations and inspire rage as the primary theme with flavor added as needed for the characters background}

To bad your GM shot you down on the options :(
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
Although you're absolutely correct in your instincts on one level- much of Kalevala magic is based in "songs of power"- Bard wouldn't really have captured the flavor..

Bard as a class is I think pretty explicitly inspired by the Kaevala. I don't see how Bard wouldn't capture the flavor. It's up to you the player to put the flavor into the class.

He is stealthy & mobile, but more in the woodsman sense. The skills & weapon list should be more akin to that of the ranger- like the heroes of the Kalevala, he is supposed to be largely self-sufficient, able to survive in the wilderness all alone if he has to. A mighty warrior as well as spellcaster.

Do you not see the problem here? You want a stealthy mobile fighter that is a great warrior and a mighty spellcaster. About this time I'd be drumming my fingers on the table too, flexible DM or not.

That's kind of judgemental.

Yes. One of my worst flaws.

Give me a try- I might surprise you.

So far, no.

That was not the concept, that was translating the concept into game terms.

Err.... right. That I think was my point. You don't have concept. You have a shopping list. I think you want to play a Bard. Perhaps multi-class with cleric or ranger.

IF your DM allows the use of alternative rules or lets you customize things, which is not guaranteed.

Which is quite beside the point. The question was whether all of these highly narrow classes that have been published are really needed to create any concept. I came down on the side that they were not, and that instead the core classes should be more flexible. It's not my fault that the core classes aren't written more flexible, or that the flexibility that is out there isn't part of the core rules yet.

Furthermore, since you weren't there, you don't know: I asked to have certain abilities (like the tracking, Move silently, and Hide) limited to wilderness environs, but the DM refused.

I wouldn't have let you do that either.

The "shopping list of abilities" reflected the aspects common to many characters of Finno-Russian legends- powerful in battle, capable of singing great songs of power (in game terms, both arcane & divine). Its an animist type of magic, reflected more in classes like the OA or KoK Shaman than the PHB cleric.

First, I've read the Kalevala. Second, do you still not see the problem here? (Hint: In 1st edition, Vainnamoinen was a 12th level cleric, 20th level paladin, 12th level illusionist, and 23rd level bard.) Third, you are the person primarily responcible for the flavor of the character - the biggest problem I have with all these really narrow classes they've come out with lately is that it gives me the impression that 99% of the people who play characters of that class will be playing the same character. Fourth, you've done nothing to convince me that your concept is actually "a cleric from a Northern warrior culture based on Finno-Russian legend, particularly from the Kalevala." As far as I can tell, you've still got a shopping list instead of a concept.
 

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