Two Weapon Fighters

[Norfleet]

I'd say your character sounds not unlike a ranger/barbarian. You'll still fill in the warrior niche, and won't seem so overtly similar to the Other Guy. But don't let him bully you into abandoning the concept, and feel free to go the full ranger route as well. Either way, pump your hide/MS skills whenever you're a ranger to maximum level, to retain your stealthy edge. Don't burn feats on it, though. The skill-boost feats are just a waste of valuable featspace. Don't cross-class. As a fighter for the rest of your career, your sneaking skills will be effectively stalled, as fighters don't get them, and crossclassing simply isn't any good.

 

[Darklone]

Well... you wanna go TWF fighter with a ranger start and some tank abilities.

Bbn/rgr may be a nice idea, but I would do the following.

Put your three best stats in strength, dex &con. Dex 18 would be good for the better TWF goodness.

Start with two levels of Ranger. If you encounter many humans, go for a bounty hunter type and pick Favored Enemy human. The first level feat (perhaps human? Woodelf would be nice for the strength and dex, but be careful not to drop your con too much) could be Weapon Focus Handaxe or quarterstaff.

The second level will grant you TWF. Go fighter from here on. Pick Weapon Specialisation Handaxe or Quarterstaff, depending on which weapon you wanna use.
Once again:
Strength at least 14, higher would help a lot.
Dex should be 16 to give you 17 for Imp TWF at level 6.
Con as high as possible.
Int 13 if possible for Combat Expertise and similar stuff.
Ranger 1: Weapon Focus Quarterstaff, Point Blank Shot (throwing two axes is nice later). Favored Enemy Human
Ranger 2: TWF. If you have two throwing axes in your hands, you can throw them both at once with damage bonus.
Ranger2/Fighter1: Two Weapon Defense. If your Dex is significantly higher than your strength, take Weapon Finesse, otherwise Dodge. You need as much AC as you can get.
Ranger2/Fighter2: One more feat, I'd drop it into Rapid Shot for the axe goodness or bows... perhaps Quickdraw would be nice too to throw a lot of axes later.
Ranger2/Ftr3: nothing here.
Ranger2/Ftr4: ITWF, Weapon Spec Quarterstaff. BAB is +6/+1 that gives you 4 attacks with your favorite double weapon, don't forget the extra bonus for all the Fav Enemy and WS goodness.

Later you might think about a druid level for Shillelagh spell splatter or 3 levels rogue (Though I'd go for four levels rogue and 3 ranger for Uncanny Dodge).

Edit: Don't forget the nice advantages of double weapons in combat: Full 1.5 times strength mod to damage when making charges and AoOs... Strength 18 would really make your life nice!!!

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Does weapon finesse work with a quarterstaff in 3.5?

No (though some rules lawyers will argue that it should work for the off-hand attack with TWF).

Concerning 2 weapon-fighting: you get an extra attacks with the off-hand. Can the attack be used for a trip or a disarm (if you have that feat)? And when do you get extra attacks with your on-hand?

Yes, you can use special attacks with off-hand attacks. You get extra "on-hand" -- primary attacks -- as your base attack bonus goes up. So the 6th level ranger with Improved Two weapon fighting gets four attacks -- two primary (due to BAB +6/+1) and two off-hand (due to TWF/ITWF) at net attack bonuses of +4/+4/-1/-1.

As a lightly armored, two-weapon fighter, you have two things to consider:

1. Your poor AC
2. Your ability to deal damage


#1 is a direct consequence of your light armor (and if TWF comes from Ranger levels, you're stuck with it). Offset with high dexterity; consider Two-Weapon Defense and Expertise feats to directly increase AC. You might also consider the Spring Attack style of attack (taking advantage of Dodge and Mobility to increase your AC), but this has the distinct disadvantage of not allowing you the full attacks you need to deal damage with the TWF style.

To deal lots of damage in #2, you need to be able to produce a high volume of accurate attacks -- which means lots of opportunities for full attacks. You want to maximize the effectiveness of your weapon(s), offset penalties, and increase attack numbers. TWF, ITWF, and GTWF become a must (which requires high Dex as a prerequisite, unless you're a Ranger). The two weapons should be the same, and light weapons (short swords, for example) to take advantage of focus and/or specialization without taking too high a penalty -- and if your Dex is high, finessable weapons are a big plus.

I'd stay away from the special attacks (Trip, Disarm, etc) -- your specialty is in another area, and you're going to need all the feats you can.

Here's two character ideas (I'll present just 11 levels); I'm assuming human, with appropriate stats to meet requirements:

1. Ranger2/Ftr9: requires a high Dexterity (19 at 11th level); he's going to use two finesseable weapons (short swords)
Rgr1 -- Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Shortsword
Rgr2 -- Combat Style: TWF
Rgr2/Ftr1 -- Two-Weapon Defense, Dodge
Rgr2/Ftr2 -- Combat Expertise
Rgr2/Ftr3
Rgr2/Ftr4 -- Weapon Specialization: Shortsword, Improved TWF
Rgr2/Ftr5
Rgr2/Ftr6 -- Improved Critical: Shortsword
Rgr2/Ftr7 -- Mobility
Rgr2/Ftr8 -- (Your choice -- could be Spring Attack, a special attack, or something else)
Rgr2/Ftr9 -- Greater TWF

2. Rgr11: requires a lower Dex (using Ranger levels to offset the Dex requirements) and focuses more on Strength using the quarterstaff (which has a distinct benefit of being able to be used as both two weapons and an two-handed weapon). You trade off being able to specialize for a while (take Ftr levels after Ranger 11), but gain damage from putting ability points in Str rather than Dex.

Rgr1 -- Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff
Rgr2 -- Combat Style: TWF
Rgr3 -- Two Weapon Defense
Rgr4
Rgr5
Rgr6 -- Combat Style: ITWF; Combat Expertise
Rgr7
Rgr8
Rgr9 -- Dodge
Rgr10
Rgr11 -- Combat Style: GTWF

Comparison at level 11 (ignoring stats, since we don't know what they are):

Rgr2/Ftr9: Full Attack of +10/+10/+5/+5/+0/+0 (plus Dex)
Damage: 1d6+2+Str each primary attack, 1d6+2+.5 Str offhand
AC: +1 TWD, +1 Dodge, +x Expertise (+4 vs. movement AoO)
Single attack is +12+Dex, damage 1d6+2+Str

Rgr11: Full attack of +10/+10/+5/+5/+0/+0 (plus Str)
Damage: 1d6+Str primary, 1d6+.5 Str offhand (+Power attack, if any)
AC: +1 TWD, +1 Dodge, +x Expertise
Single Attack is +12+Str, damage 1d6+1.5*Str (+ 2 x PA, if any)

Very similar. The first character will have a higher AC due to generally higher Dex, and deal damage well on full attacks, but loses out some when only making a single attack. The second chararcter will deal more damage if you move around a lot, due to higher average Strength (which offsets lack of Weapon Specialization), two-handed attacks, and ability to Power Attack for extra damage, but will have a bit lower AC due to less of a focus on Dex.

Mix and match between the two to get the features you want!

 

[Sanackranib]

you can do this with a straight human fighter at level 1. take cosmopolitian feat twice and use it for move silently and hide. these are now always considered class skills for you. then take 2 weapon fighting
quarterstaff, or machete. you will have the same BAB as a ranger and a whole lot more feats so you shouldn't have a problem flushing out your character concept as you go.

 

[Darklone]

If you want to do it like Sanackranib proposed, take the Skill Prodigy feat from the Kalamar Players Guide. But then you'd need a good Int...

 

[Muther Hubbard]

Thanks guys! Very generous of you to go into so much detail. After studying the PHB I've decided to to the ranger 2/ and then fighter from then on. TWF machetes, weapon finesse (get high Dex) and then take feats like weapon focus/specialilsation, improved TWF and eventually improved crit. (lots of attacks with threat range of 17-20 to boost potency later when threats will be worse).

I still think that Improved Initiative's a goodun (alongside a high dex bonus). I'll have lower AC than a fighter would normally have it helps to br quick enough to get the attack in first (and diminish the risk of being caught flat-footed (and thus see my AC tumble).

One last question (I hope I'm not trying your patience). How does mobility work? do you get the chance to attack and then move out of threat range? Attack and then fight defensive? I honestly don't know where mobility fits into the round sequence. I know you can move, attack and move.

Isn't dodge a bit poor of itself? A mere +1 AC vs. one of the opponents. I figure its a prerequisite feat you choose as a means to juicier ones? Am I right?

thanks

 

[Muther Hubbard]

Thanks guys! Very generous of you to go into so much detail. After studying the PHB I've decided to to the ranger 2/ and then fighter from then on. TWF machetes, weapon finesse (get high Dex) and then take feats like weapon focus/specialilsation, improved TWF and eventually improved crit. (lots of attacks with threat range of 17-20 to boost potency later when threats will be worse).

I'm convinced that Improved Initiative's a goodun (alongside a high dex bonus). I'll have lower AC than a fighter would normally have it helps to br quick enough to get the attack in first (and diminish the risk of being caught flat-footed (and thus see my AC tumble).

One last question (I hope I'm not trying your patience). Isn't dodge a bit poor of itself? A mere +1 AC vs. one of the opponents. I figure its a prerequisite feat you choose as a means to juicier ones? Am I right?
Spring Attack? How does it work? do you get the chance to attack and then move out of threat range? I honestly don't know where it fits into the round sequence. I know you can move, attack and move.
Is mobility useful? Are there lots of occasions where you pass through opponents threatened areas such that its a good one to have? Would I be better serves by combat reflexes to take advantage of others doing the same near me, and if so, would i get a chance with both weapons or just the one?

Thanks very much

 

[Rozman]

Dodge isn't all that hot by itself, but you'll of course notice the effects more at low levels where +1 still means a lot.

I'm not a huge fan of Combat Reflexes unless it's part of a larger chain. Assuming you're using the Core books only the chain's not all that hot unless you're using a spiked chain/ guisarme and go for tripping with reach. My critter generally avoid AoO when they can, unless there's pressing need to get past someone.

Mobility in and of itself is good for helping you survive the trip in against those pesky critters with reach. Depends on how mobile you want to be.

It also leads to Spring Attack, but that won't be too hot for your character. You don't provoke an AoO for moving through your target's threatened area, but you must move both before and after attacking, precluding a Full Attack (and therefore TWF.)

Basically, you get your normal movement max, so maybe walk 10', smack the baddy once, then walk back 20'. Nice hit-and-run tactic if you've got the space, but not the best behavior in a tank, and it sounds like your party is looking for a meat-shield to stand out in front

You might want to go with a 3rd level of Ranger to get at Endurance, depending on whether you want to be up or down at -1hp. Either on your feet, or no longer a target for the badguy. Depends on how much you trust you party to promptly heal you

You also get a feat or stat increase every level up through level 9, so you always feel like you've accomplished something

1- Ranger- Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
2- Ranger- TWF (free)
3- Ranger- Endurance (free)
- Diehard
4- Fighter- Two-Weapon Defense
- Stat increase: +Dex
5- Fighter- Weapon Focus (machete)
6- Fighter- Improved TWF
7- Fighter- Weapon Specialization (machete)
8- Fighter- Stat increase + Dex
9- Fighter- Improved Critical (machete)
- Combat Expertise/ Power Attack, whichever you prefer.

This leaves Greater TWF, Greater Weapon Focus and Greater weapon Specialization at levels 11, 13 and 15, and whatever at 12. Maybe Iron Will to improve your woeful Will save

You could go Improved Disarm, but you're at -4 when using a light weapon. Not good enough to merit giving up an attack most of the time.

 

[Darklone]

I really like this build... only "disadvantage": You are a damage machine with your weapons, no time for finesse or different combat manoevers. That must not be bad though.

 

[TuDogz]

I have a character similar to what you want to build. Only wears leather armor to keep mobility up and minimize Armor check penalties/spell failure ( he has a little sorceror). My original goal was sort of along your lines but because of party dynamics I ended up having to become the primary frontline fighter. Since my AC is sub-optimal for the job I have used the technique of "kill the enemy fast before they kill you". You must have good rapport with the party cleric.

I have used my feats and stats to maximize my damage dealing capacity and maintained my character concept with my skill choices. As such I reccommend your highest stat goes to strength and so do your stat bonuses. No need for weapon finesse unless you're a wimp. I saw you didn't like the power attack/cleave/great cleave line but it effectively adds attacks if you use it wisely. Every downed opponent is an additional attack and if you are going to get stuck in a front line role there will never be a shortage of targets if you move properly. Combat reflexes also adds attacks especially if you account for future enemy movement when you place yourself into melee. Additional attacks always help when you're crit surfing.

The whole spring attack line is nice if you are in a single blow trading kind of situation but you are far more likely to end up trying to maximize the potential of your full attack sequence. As the primary fighter you must have a high damage/round output or the rest of the party is going to take it on the chin in the long run.

All in all, I guess I don't like the defensive builds I'm seeing because the gains in AC generally aren't big enough to keep the NPC fighters from hitting you anyway if you are stuck up front.

All that said I understand the character type you want, dual wielding is a great way to go crit surfing, and while the above does not seem to be it I think you can maintain your character style concept with roleplaying and skill choices, even if they cost you to go cross class (or use cosmopolitan or diversify into other classes), yet still survive and be functional in the role your group seems to be requiring of you.

Just a different viewpoint.

-TuDogz