OneDnD UA Groups: Expert, Mage, Priest, Warrior

I support using the term Priest for the group, it's flavourful.

I think for each group the common element is Experts-Expertise, Warriors Extra Attack & Fighting Style Feats, Priests Channel Divinity Feats (with Wildspace being a festure that isn't a feature, but is still fueled by channel Divinity).

I'm curious what kind of feats the Priests get. Like obviously a healing one, but what other ones?

Could they do something crazy and make Paladins full casters?
 

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I support using the term Priest for the group, it's flavourful.

I think for each group the common element is Experts-Expertise, Warriors Extra Attack & Fighting Style Feats, Priests Channel Divinity Feats (with Wildspace being a festure that isn't a feature, but is still fueled by channel Divinity).

I'm curious what kind of feats the Priests get. Like obviously a healing one, but what other ones?

Could they do something crazy and make Paladins full casters?
where is monk and paladin in this line up?
 


Could they do something crazy and make Paladins full casters?
I think the all-important game balance comes in. Classes can't be better than other classes, or everyone will just play those classes. Thus the endless rebalancing over the editions, as players find ways to exploit the system, and D&D attracts players who like to optimize complex systems--for many people it's a big part of the fun of the game. Remember, paladins fight better than clerics and druids. They have to have some kind of drawback. Adventurer Conqueror King had a nice system for custom class creation where you could mix & match custom classes that were 1/2 fighter, 1/4 mage, and 1/4 cleric or something.

The alternative is, of course, a skills-based system or some kind of point-based character build as is done in many other RPGs, but then it wouldn't feel like D&D anymore. There's the long expectation of 'pick race/ancestry, pick class, pick equipment, pick spells if spellcaster, get adventuring'. There are all kinds of drawbacks in terms of custom characters that can't be made (look at all the arguments over gish builds), but ultimately it's lasted for almost 50 years. For all their edition-profiteering-and-tweaking, they're doing something right, or we'd be playing DragonQuest 5th edition.
 

Gorck

Prince of Dorkness
I am not a massive fan of ‘priest’ - for me, it’s like calling them rabbis or vicars, because the word is the word for an ordained member in a specific real world religion. I’d prefer a term that relates to faith or devotion that doesn’t invoke either Father Ted or a need to be part of an organised religion. Trouble is, I can’t think of anything I like - devotee? Bit naff. Zealot? Utterly perjorative. Hmmm.
Maybe something like "Devout" would fit better? They all seem to have a "devotion" to a something - Cleric to a god, Druid to nature, and Paladin to a cause.
 

cbwjm

Legend
I'm actually quite keen on keeping the group titles as listed, mostly because it seems like an homage to 2e which is right up there as a favourite edition of mine, though changing rogue to expert seems like a great change.

My only real issue with the groups is the way they've assign classes to them. Bard and rogue being experts makes sense, but I see the ranger as a warrior first with an expert overlay, the same with the paladin albeit I see them as a warrior with a priest overlay. The issues that have arisen from this is what we see in the feats, paladin will clearly have an exception just like the ranger in regard to fighting styles, but will they also have an exception for the epic boons, and if so, should they be in the warrior group instead?
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Expert
Mage
Mystic
Warrior



Rename the problematic Priest as the Mystic group.

The term "mystic" connotes religion but in diverse ways that are beyond the routine of any traditional customs.

Also, even tho the term mysticism denotes a transcendent worldview, it can be theistic or nontheistic. Reallife mystic traditions refer to Buddhist mystical traditions, for example. Also, popculture often uses the term "mystic" for any magical practice whether nontranscendent or not. So it is possible to talk about mystical traditions within animism, for example.

I like the name Mystic for the Psion class. But I am also ok with the name Psion being an endearing D&D-ism, even when generally avoiding psionic technobabble. So it is ok to use the term Mystic for the group of classes. Indeed, a Psion can easily be a Mystic class alongside the theistic Cleric and nontheistic Paladin.
 

Expert
Mage
Mystic
Warrior



Rename the problematic Priest as the Mystic group.

The term "mystic" connotes religion but in diverse ways that are beyond the routine of any traditional customs.

Also, even tho the term mysticism denotes a transcendent worldview, it can be theistic or nontheistic. Reallife mystic traditions refer to Buddhist mystical traditions, for example. Also, popculture often uses the term "mystic" for any magical practice whether nontranscendent or not. So it is possible to talk about mystical traditions within animism, for example.

I like the name Mystic for the Psion class. But I am also ok with the name Psion being an endearing D&D-ism, even when generally avoiding psionic technobabble. So it is ok to use the term Mystic for the group of classes. Indeed, a Psion can easily be a Mystic class alongside the theistic Cleric and nontheistic Paladin.

Or they can just keep using Priest, this isn't real world religions, they are fantasy religions, even when using fantasy races.

If you use something as generic as mystic it's going to be baizzaire that Monks are in the Warrior group given that Monks are universally Mystics.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Or they can just keep using Priest, this isn't real world religions, they are fantasy religions, even when using fantasy races.

If you use something as generic as mystic it's going to be baizzaire that Monks are in the Warrior group given that Monks are universally Mystics.
Why dont we just call them: the Expert group, the Mage group, the Warrior group, and the Jesus group?

Are you honestly suggesting that names dont matter?

We need names that avoid ethnocentrism as much as possible.

The term "Priest" group is dead wrong for a significant percentage of the reallife human species.

The concept of a "priest", namely an official who maintains a temple and the offerings to the god there, can be part of this group. But there are many other concepts that are part of this group too, including sages like rabbis and imams, and nontheistic shamans, seers, and monastics.

The 5e Paladin is nontheistic! In no way does it in itself qualify as a kind of "priest".

By contrast, the Paladin can be a "mystic" warrior.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Right now, the group includes: Cleric, Druid, and Paladin.

The Paladin is a "nonpriest".

The D&D version of the Druid is normally nontheistic, and is a nonpriest.

Even the Cleric is defacto "itinerant", lacking officially-assigned temple offering duties.

None of these classes are "priests".

It is possible to use the background to build a "priest" concept.

But none of the three classes have anything to do with what the word "priest" means.
 
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Yaarel

Mind Mage
Some one suggested "Devoted" which I think it good.
That makes sense. I can live with that.

"Devotee" is a common word, ranging from a religious fanatic to a football enthusiast.

It implies having made a "vow", whether formal or informal, but in English generally means any kind of dedicated behavior.

I heard on TV, a character describe "devotion" as the intersection between obligation and love.
 

Haplo781

Legend
In D&D though, Mystic means Psionics. I'd very much expect that if they create a new Psionic class later on, it would be in the Priest group, and be called a Mystic.

I HIGHLY doubt they're going to drop Priest, unfortunately. I'd personally just go with Healer.

Also, I lament the loss of the Thaumaturge.

In the Sidekick classes, we have Expert, Warrior, and Spellcaster - but there are subclasses for these. Expert's subclasses are essentially which saving throw they are proficient in (and thus likely are focused on for their skill monkeying) - Dex, Int, or Cha. So, Artisan, Bookish, or Face. Warrior subclasses are Attacker or Defender (roughly equivalent 4e Striker and Defender roles).

Meanwhile, Spellcaster subclasses are Mage, Healer, and Thaumaturge - Int, Wis, and Cha, respectively, as well as Wizard, Cleric/Druid, Bard/Warlock spell lists. These are the equivalent to the Arcane Spell List / Mage Class Group, Divine & Primal Spell Lists / Priest Class Group, and a missing Spell List / Missing Class Group.

I've been frustrated since 2015 when they gave the 4e Swordmage spells in SCAG to just Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock. That design was carried over to their updates in 2019's TCoE. But clearly, TO WOTC, Mage & Arcane mean specifically those three classes. But clearly Bards are Arcane because they've been Arcane since 3e kinda, so we'll give them access to just that spell list… but give them some bonus healing spells and access to other spells of their choice at Paragon levels… this does allow warrior Bards to get the Swordmage spells (assuming they make it into the 2024 PHB). But I think it really would make more sense in general to create a Thaumaturge spell list and let Sorcerers, Bards, and Warlocks access it, while Wizards and Artificers use the Mage spell list. Maybe these 4 class groups are forced chassis that causes more problems than it solves - akin to the power source x party role matrix in 4e.

Actually, this is more like how 4e turned Alignment into a line from a grid than the 4e character grid - roles and power sources are getting confused and forced together in weird ways. I think class groups COULD work as long as they really don't try to Grid fill. Grid Filling is the danger here - where you want your spreadsheets to look balanced so you move options around into places that don't make sense for those options and thus restrict them from their archetype's fun.
I propose Leader, Striker, Defender, and Controller.
 

Micah Sweet

Legend
Why dont we just call them: the Expert group, the Mage group, the Warrior group, and the Jesus group?

Are you honestly suggesting that names dont matter?

We need names that avoid ethnocentrism as much as possible.

The term "Priest" group is dead wrong for a significant percentage of the reallife human species.

The concept of a "priest", namely an official who maintains a temple and the offerings to the god there, can be part of this group. But there are many other concepts that are part of this group too, including sages like rabbis and imams, and nontheistic shamans, seers, and monastics.

The 5e Paladin is nontheistic! In no way does it in itself qualify as a kind of "priest".

By contrast, the Paladin can be a "mystic" warrior.
The word Paladin is just as ethnocentric. Monk and Barbarian are possible issues for other reasons, but it doesn't look like WotC's planning on changing any of them.
 

The word Paladin is just as ethnocentric. Monk and Barbarian are possible issues for other reasons, but it doesn't look like WotC's planning on changing any of them.
I'd rather see them ditch 'Monk', personally. 'Priest' kind of fits, but most monks outside the Shaolin monastery in China (and most inside) are not martial artists.
 


Why dont we just call them: the Expert group, the Mage group, the Warrior group, and the Jesus group?

Are you honestly suggesting that names dont matter?

We need names that avoid ethnocentrism as much as possible.

The term "Priest" group is dead wrong for a significant percentage of the reallife human species.

The concept of a "priest", namely an official who maintains a temple and the offerings to the god there, can be part of this group. But there are many other concepts that are part of this group too, including sages like rabbis and imams, and nontheistic shamans, seers, and monastics.

The 5e Paladin is nontheistic! In no way does it in itself qualify as a kind of "priest".

By contrast, the Paladin can be a "mystic" warrior.

Are you suggesting Christianity is the only religion with Priests, because that is far from true.
 

That makes sense. I can live with that.

"Devotee" is a common word, ranging from a religious fanatic to a football enthusiast.

It implies having made a "vow", whether formal or informal, but in English generally means any kind of dedicated behavior.

I heard on TV, a character describe "devotion" as the intersection between obligation and love.

Devotee could apply to any class, its too generic.

Priest is fine, it's no worse then the term Cleric itself, in fact it's much more broadly applible to more religions then Cleric or Paladin themselves are and those terms aren't going anywhere.
 



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