D&D (2024) UA Ranger (Playtest 6)

[Ruin Explorer]

you need more overall damage in the day

Just to be clear, no-one, literally no-one, actually playing D&D, an actual table, ever thinks anything like that. That's most pure-theorycraft phrase I've seen for like, years. Real disconnected game-designer think.

No-one playing D&D thinks of "needing overall damage in the day". They think of killing this monster or that monster or those monsters. And again, you're once more pointing out the big problem with Conjure Barrage. It's not a tool that feels effective to use at the actual table. It inflicts a relatively small amount of damage, with an annoying AE shape (PBAOE cones are absolutely hellish to use compared to distant AOE cubes and spheres), and by the time you get it, the damage is truly a joke compared to the HP of enemies you're actually dealing with. It seems to be balanced as if you're going to somehow hit a vast number of targets, but that won't happen with a PBAOE cone. They'd be much, much better off with a spell doing considerably more damage, but having say a low hard target limit, like 3 or 5.

 

[Stalker0]

Just to be clear, no-one, literally no-one, actually playing D&D, an actual table, ever thinks anything like that. That's most pure-theorycraft phrase I've seen for like, years. Real disconnected game-designer think.

No-one playing D&D thinks of "needing overall damage in the day". They think of killing this monster or that monster or those monsters. And again, you're once more pointing out the big problem with Conjure Barrage. It's not a tool that feels effective to use at the actual table. It inflicts a relatively small amount of damage, with an annoying AE shape (PBAOE cones are absolutely hellish to use compared to distant AOE cubes and spheres), and by the time you get it, the damage is truly a joke compared to the HP of enemies you're actually dealing with. It seems to be balanced as if you're going to somehow hit a vast number of targets, but that won't happen with a PBAOE cone. They'd be much, much better off with a spell doing considerably more damage, but having say a low hard target limit, like 3 or 5.

Well then welcome to my players. For I have a player that loves to debate spell cost usage "hmm do I think I'll need that for another fight, or use it now".

Once again I will take issue with "small amount damage". It is trivial for a ranger to do close to double their normal damage output with CB, even 3x in a more clustered group....I mean that's action surge levels right there and the ranger still gets more spells

I think your using your normal concerns about cones and applying it here. But this is a 60 ft cone, much larger than maybe the 15-30 foot cones we often see from wizards. And of course the big one, there is no friendly fire, so that never comes up in your concerns here. a 60 foot cone can absolutely hit 3-4 targets regularly.

 

[Minigiant]

Now perhaps you make the argument that instead of using your second 3rd level slot for a CB, you use it for another hunter's mark in case the first one drops. Ultimately that's a question of what your character needs. If you need to nova in an encounter, its better to CB. If you think HM might drop and you need more overall damage in the day, saving your slot is better. What's great is your not forced to choose, you always have CB available if you want it, but if you don't, that's fine too.

That is my argument.

That a ranger lacks enough spell slots to cast CB if they plan on casting HM and a Back up HM. You don't get to your cap of 3 slots until level 11 and 4th level slots until 13.

This makes it a ribbon feature when rangers are already are missing a lot more iconic ribbons.

 

[WanderingMystic]

That is my argument.

That a ranger lacks enough spell slots to cast CB if they plan on casting HM and a Back up HM. You don't get to your cap of 3 slots until level 11 and 4th level slots until 13.

This makes it a ribbon feature when rangers are already are missing a lot more iconic ribbons.

So to me I already have 3 free uses of HM so I am not going to be wasting a 3rd level spell slot for an extra d6 damage.

Cone of cold a 5th lvl spell does 8d8 but hits everyone in the same area, so at the same level that a full caster gets that spell we get one that does an average of 16 (assuming they save .60%of the time) vs 27(assuming a 50% save chance). So we are doing 40% less for ignoring friendly targets and not having as high of a primary casting stat.

It is not a bad use of a spell slot to be honest, now with vollie I think It needs to be dropped down to a 4th level slot for it to be useful and I could see this being a good second lvl spell if it was only 4d8. That way your 3rd level slot is free for if you really need an enhanced hunters mark.

 

[Stalker0]

So we are doing 40% less for ignoring friendly targets and not having as high of a primary casting stat.

This is a good point and likely the biggest knock against CB (or really any DC spell the ranger has). DCs for half casters are usually terrible, probably -2 to -3 below their full caster counterparts in many cases.

 

[Minigiant]

So to me I already have 3 free uses of HM so I am not going to be wasting a 3rd level spell slot for an extra d6 damage.

1d6 extra damage and 7 extra hours of duration

Cone of cold a 5th lvl spell does 8d8 but hits everyone in the same area, so at the same level that a full caster gets that spell we get one that does an average of 16 (assuming they save .60%of the time) vs 27(assuming a 50% save chance). So we are doing 40% less for ignoring friendly targets and not having as high of a primary casting stat.

40% less damage and 20-30% less success rate for no friendly fire seems like a bad trade.
Especially when that full caster might have no friendly fire as an metamagic, subclass feature, or now a modified spell and more slots.

Not saying Conjure Barrage is terrible.
Just saying Speak with Animals, Cure Wounds, Barkskin, Animal Messenger, or Summon Beast are a lot more iconic and useful than Conjure Barrage. Even Entangle.

 

[Pauln6]

Maybe they need to update it to you can cast it once per long rest without using a spell slot but the material components are a piece of ammunition for each target. ;-p

 

[mellored]

Not saying Conjure Barrage is terrible.
Just saying Speak with Animals, Cure Wounds, Barkskin, Animal Messenger, or Summon Beast are a lot more iconic and useful than Conjure Barrage. Even Entangle.

They needed to do something with the spell.

And it wasn't going to go on the Primal list.

 

[Minigiant]

They needed to do something with the spell.

And it wasn't going to go on the Primal list.

Sure.

My issue is flavor and power.

To be automatically known spells of every high level ranger, the Conjure Barrage and Conjure Volley don't match the flavor power nor the combat power of the class to me.

I mean in constant of Paladins, Rangers should have the spell onlys to burst single target, burst multitarget, or sustained varied target damage.

The ranger should be a hater of mooks, bosses, and elites depending on their favored enemy. It's something WOTC, Paizo, and other publishers don't focus on. The slayer of goblinkind would fight different than the bane to dragons

It would be better if the ranger got free known spells of their utility which freed up their prepared spells for their favored enemy. The ranger stated close to the wizard.

 

[mellored]

Sure.

My issue is flavor and power.

To be automatically known spells of every high level ranger, the Conjure Barrage and Conjure Volley don't match the flavor power nor the combat power of the class to me.

I mean in constant of Paladins, Rangers should have the spell onlys to burst single target, burst multitarget, or sustained varied target damage.

The ranger should be a hater of mooks, bosses, and elites depending on their favored enemy. It's something WOTC, Paizo, and other publishers don't focus on. The slayer of goblinkind would fight different than the bane to dragons

It would be better if the ranger got free known spells of their utility which freed up their prepared spells for their favored enemy. The ranger stated close to the wizard.

And then what do you do with Conjure Barrage?