D&D 5E (2014) UA Spell Versatility: A deeper dive

[abirdcall]

I'm also someone who highly dislikes the 'change a spell on long rest' mechanic.

Regardless of whether it is published or not I will never use it.

I fear that people will be giving this change (and others) positive feedback simply because it is an increase in power.

 

[Ashrym]

I'm also someone who highly dislikes the 'change a spell on long rest' mechanic.

Regardless of whether it is published or not I will never use it.

I fear that people will be giving this change (and others) positive feedback simply because it is an increase in power.

You must loathe wizards, druids, clerics, and paladins then, lol.

I suspect it will be an optional mechanic anyway. If not, it will probably be contentious enough that many people will simply not allow it.

Alternatively, a person could level-gate it in at 11th level or something, and only allow 1st or 2nd-level spells. The only real concern I see is with plenty of downtime or in the case of high level spells. It's one of those things that would see a lot of house-ruling even if allowed given the current presentation.

 

[Vael]

So, first, as a DM, I generally allow my PCs to retrain their cantrips. They're bread and butter spells, and if a PC is finding that they just aren't working out, then I don't want to punish them. To be blunt, I don't see an issue with any of the spell versatility options in the UA, but I'll dig a little deeper.

Bard: Magical Secrets is not part of spellcasting, so I don't actually think you can swap out those spells. That said, you're always swapping a spell for a spell of the same level, so even a more lenient approach doesn't really bother me.

Ranger, Warlock: Swapping out a spell known after a long rest, again, of the same level, seems to add some versatility without compromising anything.

Sorcerer: I really like this feature for the Sorcerer. If I were to play a Wild Sorcerer I'd be tempted to consider one of my spells known to be a "Flex Slot" and then create a random table for it. So, say I choose a 2nd level spell to be a flex slot, after every long rest, I'm assumed to have "retrained" the Flex slot and the first time I cast the Flex Slot, I roll a random 2nd level spell that is on the list. Now, for the rest of the day, that spell is locked in, but who knows about tomorrow? Also, given how many times I've seen a thread about the underpowered nature of Sorcerers, I don't mind something that might be considered a power boost.

A final thought ... my experience with players is very few that play prepared casters are super aggressive with switching out their spells. Most players have a favoured list of spells, and they might change a spell or two as necessary, but they practically play out the same as a character that knows their spells.

 

[Ashrym]

Bard: Magical Secrets is not part of spellcasting, so I don't actually think you can swap out those spells. That said, you're always swapping a spell for a spell of the same level, so even a more lenient approach doesn't really bother me.

Oh, no, you can definitely swap out magical secrets. Bards don't have 2 separate lists of spells known.

When I level up from 5th level to 6th level on a lore bard I get extra magical secrets. At that time, I can select spells from any class using the magical secrets rules. So I could add fireball and alter self, for example. The magical secrets rules state specifically that those are bard spells from me.

The rules for swapping out spells state I can change a bard spell I know for a spell on the bard spell list. If I decide I don't like alter self I can swap it for any spell on the bard list because alter self is a 2nd level bard spell for me as specified by that secrets choice when chosen. I cannot swap it out for lightning bolt using the level up mechanic because I'm swapping a bard spell for a bard spell on my bard spell list using the swapping spells mechanic. How alter self actually became a bard spell for me is irrelevant to the swapping RAW. Any spell not on the bard list is off limits to swap in because the swapping mechanic doesn't create a condition to consider lighting bolt (from the example) a bard spell or on the bard spell list.

Mistaking spells known via secrets as somehow special bard spells is what leads to confusion. Treating them exactly like any other bard spell is how they work and why they are part of the spells known table. This is how the UA version works:

"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can replace one spell you learned from this Spellcasting feature with another spell from the bard spell list."

Again, magical secrets gives the bard a bard spell regardless of list. A bard spell is a bard spell is a bard spell and how it became a bard spell is irrelevant. The language on the swap is also specific to the bard spell list and doesn't include any mechanic to swap a bard spell for a non-bard spell.

Don't overcomplicate the definition of a bard spell.

EDIT: the fact that it says "from this spellcasting feature" would prevent swapping entire lists during downtime because the one swapped in is always the one swapped out RAW.

 

[DND_Reborn]

While I am not against the idea of Spell Versatility, I would change the time requirement to 1 day per spell level you want to swap out. Given enough downtime, this won't make a difference to the UA concept, but in a time -sensitive situation it could be interesting.

 

[Ashrym]

While I am not against the idea of Spell Versatility, I would change the time requirement to 1 day per spell level you want to swap out. Given enough downtime, this won't make a difference to the UA concept, but in a time -sensitive situation it could be interesting.

Reread it. Downtime doesn't change multiple spells. When you swap a spell one day, that's the spell you swap out next time. The spell traded out would have to be the same spell traded in via the feature per the RAW.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Reread it. Downtime doesn't change multiple spells. When you swap a spell one day, that's the spell you swap out next time. The spell traded out would have to be the same spell traded in via the feature per the RAW.

You take a long rest, you can swap out a spell, right? Pretty simple provided they are the same level.

I am just saying instead of a long rest, make it a "day" (24-hours) per level of the spell you are swapping out. Ex. A sorcerer knows Fireball, wants Lightning Bolt. Three "days" later and he now knows Lightning Bolt instead of Fireball. Next, he wants to swap out Invisibility for Knock. Two more days later, and now he knows Knock instead of Invisibility. Several days of downtime later, and all his spells are changed.

So... what am I missing?

 

[abirdcall]

Reread it. Downtime doesn't change multiple spells. When you swap a spell one day, that's the spell you swap out next time. The spell traded out would have to be the same spell traded in via the feature per the RAW.

It's not referring to the enhanced feature. It's referring to the class' spellcasting feature.
It is "enhancing spellcasting". It is an addition to their spellcasting feature, not its own feature.
There is no keeping track of what your original spell was. Once it is swapped out that is your new spell list. They would not intentionally make something so finicky.

 

[DND_Reborn]

It's not referring to the enhanced feature. It's referring to the class' spellcasting feature.
It is "enhancing spellcasting". It is an addition to their spellcasting feature, not its own feature.
There is no keeping track of what your original spell was. Once it is swapped out that is your new spell list. They would not intentionally make something so finicky.

Yeah, I just saw your post in the other thread. I agree @Ashrym is not reading it correctly. His understanding would limit it to one use and they done. Makes it pointless.

 

[Ashrym]

It's not referring to the enhanced feature. It's referring to the class' spellcasting feature.
It is "enhancing spellcasting". It is an addition to their spellcasting feature, not its own feature.
There is no keeping track of what your original spell was. Once it is swapped out that is your new spell list. They would not intentionally make something so finicky.

Yeah, I just saw your post in the other thread. I agree @Ashrym is not reading it correctly. His understanding would limit it to one use and they done. Makes it pointless.

No. It says "this feature" while using the spell versatility feature. 5e uses specific language and it would have said "bard spell you know" or which ever class if that were the case.

EDIT: it's not one use either. It's one spell known that gets swapped on a long rest, like a floater.