UA: V/WP - what about this?

[Ranger REG]

Ranger REG - are you saying that they've changed it so DR now protects VP too in SWRPG, or in UA using WP/VP in conjunction with armor providing DR?

According to the excerpt I read on the Wizards' web site:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040206a&page=3

DR in general protects both VP and WP. For example a Barbarian with DR 2 will subtract 2 from any damage to goes to VP and to WP (if VP is already reduced to 0). Critical hits will bypass/ignore DR and VP. That means the same Barbarian who receive critical hit, will apply FULL damage to his WP.

As for armor as DR, it is not mentioned, to allow you to decide to stick with the old AC system or the variant, but from what I gathered in other posts, you can stack DR. The same Barbarian will probably have DR 3 (DR 2 for 10th class level plus DR 1 for leather armor). Critical hit under the VP/WP System will bypass DR of armors.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

In SWd20, DR only protects for WPs, and I agree wit hthis because VP aren't actually hits.

One major thing you may want to consider is doing what SWd20 did with regard to Sneak Attacks. The Scoundrel has this ability, but it was changed in the revision for the better. For a Sneak Attack, instead of a d6 of damage, use +1, +2, etc based on the level. Instead of a 4d6 Sneak Attack, its +4 damage. this can be much more significant than it seems.

 

[Ranger REG]

In SWd20, DR only protects for WPs, and I agree wit hthis because VP aren't actually hits.

Well, you are welcome to adhere to Star Wars model, but it will make DR next to useless, especally for a Barbarian and his Damage Reduction ability. Even I have to agree with a growing camp of Star Wars gamers that prefers to apply "armor as DR" to BOTH VP and WP, and will rally in support of this UA model.

 

[MadBlue]

In SWd20, DR only protects for WPs, and I agree wit hthis because VP aren't actually hits.

Yeah, one line of flavor text says that "losing vitality points from a blaster shot doesn't mean the blaster hits you..." but it's really taking liberties to suggest that as long as the damage is deducted from VP it means you haven't been hit. After all, the same flavor text also describes VP loss as resulting from "turning a potentially lethal blow into a glancing blow".

When you lose VP from a blaster bolt, you were able to flinch or roll just in time, avoiding a direct hit (i.e. loss of WP), but the bolt still grazes you. It just doesn't do any damage requiring medical attention.

The mechanics wouldn't work if they assumed that a hit isn't really a hit unless it does WP damage. Consider that a bolt from a blaster set on stun obviously has to hit its target to be effective, and in D&D someone hit by a spell like Melf's Acid Arrow suffers continuous damage, presumably from VP (if using the WP/VP rules). Similarly, a character can take all falling damage as VP if they make a successful Reflex Save. Presumably they're still making contact with the ground.

Also, if I have DR 5 battle armor, and my opponent has a knife, it's far more realistic for him to stick me with the knife a few times and change his tactics when he realizes he can't get through my armor, than it is for me to keep rolling with the blow until I'm out of breath and then have him stick me with the knife a few times only to realize he can't get through my armor. Basically, DR should apply to VP as well as WP.

One major thing you may want to consider is doing what SWd20 did with regard to Sneak Attacks. The Scoundrel has this ability, but it was changed in the revision for the better. For a Sneak Attack, instead of a d6 of damage, use +1, +2, etc based on the level. Instead of a 4d6 Sneak Attack, its +4 damage. this can be much more significant than it seems.

Actually, it's called a "Precise Attack" in the revised edition, and it can apply to either the attack roll or damage roll of any Dex-based attack, once per round. It's completely different from "Sneak Attack". However, the Bounty Hunter PrC has "Sneak Attack" and it works exactly like the D&D Rogue's (from 1d6 at 2nd level to 5d6 at 10th level).

 

[Jack Daniel]

I mentioned this in the UA thread, but it's probably more appropriate here. Sneak Attack damage isn't multiplied by a critical hit because it's already assumed to be hitting a vital area. If it only does Vitality damage on a critical hit, it sounds more like you've redefined Sneak Attack to mean you're hitting a pressure point, or some other non-vital area, which is more likely to incapacitate, rather than kill, the subject. Which sounds like as decent a way to convert the ability as converting d6 to 1 Wound point is. My question then is, how does Sneak Attack work on a subject who has no VP left? Does it convert to Wound Damage then or is it non-effective?

What if the DR is higher than the damage that a weapon could feasibly inflict? For example, a dagger in the hands of someone with a 10 STR can only inflict 4 points of damage max. What if the opponent's DR is 4? What if it's not a critical hit? It doesn't make sense that my opponent would allow himself to be worn down (lose VP) by me poking a dagger at him if I can't even get through his armor and do real damage (WP).

Of course, this is was a question I posed when it was announced SWRPG was using the same kind of system. I didn't get an official answer, but somebody argued with me that if my opponent was letting the armor take the blows, he was therefore "helpless" and opened himself up for a coup de grace (then again, the same guy argued that Undead under the WP/VP system would only have VP and zombies would be bobbing and weaving and dodging my blows until they inexplicably collapsed - once all their VP were gone).

Common sense in every case, I always say. Obviously when sneak attacking a target with no VP, the sneak attack damage would be wound damage. As for armor DR, it's just a system that I find myself required to implement, lest a few critical hits decimate a high-level party too easily. I have not yet run into the dagger vs. DR 4 problem, because as near as I can tell, I've never seen any right-minded player with a STR 10 and a dagger try to fight a guy with full plate armor. If the issue came up, I would probably revert to this rule:

[font=Courier New][b]Set DR   Random DR[/b][/font]
[font=Courier New]1/--	 1d2/--[/font]
[font=Courier New][color=silver]2/--	 1d4/--[/color][/font]
[font=Courier New]3/--	 1d6/--[/font]
[font=Courier New][color=silver]4/--	 1d8/--[/color][/font]
[font=Courier New][color=#98fb98]

[/color][/font]

Sometimes I let players choose between the random DR die, and a sort of "taking 10." Before I tell them what the damage is, of course.

 

[Nifelhein]

So, after all, we must make the rule fit the game better, as it seem to be a little out of place in D&D and its mechanics...

I wil give this some thought, specially because I am thinking about using this in my next game but I would like to ahve it more coherently working with the game.

I am all for smplicity, though, so i won't be adding even more complex rules to the game or the chosen systems.

 

[Ranger REG]

So, after all, we must make the rule fit the game better, as it seem to be a little out of place in D&D and its mechanics...

It will change your D&D game, or your perception of a baseline D&D game.

Unfortunately, Andy Collins stated that this book is not for newbies. (See his web site and messageboard: www.andycollins.net )

 

[Nifelhein]

I think, in fact,that it will change not only the D&D game, but the whole feel of it, it will be much more grim and gritty than epic, so that is okay, provided that I am DMing Midnigth right now and plan to do so for sometime...

Think you I am newbie, do you? No... long time player and DM, longtime lurker here too. I have been into D&D for around 16 years or so, as I am 23 now it is quite sometime...

 

[Derulbaskul]

Hi Nif,

When does UA arrive in Brazil? I just got it here in Oz yesterday... but I think you know that from the AtS post.

Anyway, I've got it so if you need anything clarified feel free to PM.

Cheers
D

 

[Nifelhein]

In fact I never buy from a lcoal store, the cost is too high compared to the possiblity of buying it oevr the inetrnet, so far from Amazon, specially with their high discounts on WotC products, and maybe I have just found a new place to make my buyings (d20books.com from Jeff, yahoo dawnforge and midnight lists).

So far I plan on using it, but I don't like changes mid game so this game will have no rule changes, next game may see vp/wp rules and maybe some others too.

If I ned any help I will PM you, Derul, and I have just apologized on that thread... you know the one..