UA: V/WP - what about this?

[Plane Sailing]

Okay, I think I missed on my comment, so I'll try a slightly different tack on this aspect.

Spells do not have a chance to do Criticals.

Under a V/WP only Criticals go straight to WP.

This means that spells can only do the slow wear down on characters -- there is no such thing as "one shot, one kill" with, say, a Magic Missile or a Fireball.

I feel that spells need to be addressed in such a system.

Am I alone in this thought?

Spells which require a to hit roll (e.g. rays) can critical though.

Nonetheless, it is a good point. I used to run a wound point/hit point system back in my 1e game in the 1980's, and the way that I resolved it was that if someone fumbled a saving throw against a fireball (or any other damage effect) by rolling a 1 and then failing again on a second roll, then the damage went straight to wound points. That could be used with this setup too (although once again it could lead to unexpected instant kills. If it was used wrt dragon breath too it could result in literal overkills

Cheers

 

[Nifelhein]

Ouch!

yes, WP/VP increase the death rate for the group and that is exactly what i am looking for here, I want the players to fear not only because they are with low hp, but any moment they could get killed.

I think any spell failed with a 1 would be good to suffer the same fate of the sugested mechanic for sneak attack damage, 1 point of damage per die of the spell, all this directly to WP... OUCH!

 

[Plane Sailing]

yes, WP/VP increase the death rate for the group and that is exactly what i am looking for here, I want the players to fear not only because they are with low hp, but any moment they could get killed.

I think any spell failed with a 1 would be good to suffer the same fate of the sugested mechanic for sneak attack damage, 1 point of damage per die of the spell, all this directly to WP... OUCH!

The one thing that wp/vp removes from the game which we considered significant is that you no longer have the "at -ves and bleeding" syndrome, which adds a lot of drama to a melee. The PCs all ended up fighting on their wounds and dying in the end

edit: great idea wrt copying sneak attack mechanism for spell damage btw

 

[Liquid Snake]

Huh?

Haven't you noticed the fact that characters become immune to damage once they reach 0 WP?

All damage that could take you below 0 WP automatically brings you to 0 WP. You just have to dealwith the Fort saves to see if you're disabled or dying.

As written the rules seem not to allow an instant death -only slow, painful, bloddy deaths-


http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=155760&perpage=30&pagenumber=1

 

[Nifelhein]

What makes me a little pissed is this:

Creatures capable of dealing a large amount of damage on a single hit become significantly more deadly in this system, since a lucky attack roll can deliver a deadly blow to almost any character. For critical hits, consider reducing the additional damage from bonus damage dice (such as a flaming sword or a rogue's sneak attack) to only 1 point per die. (Such attacks deal normal damage on noncritical hits.) That's still pretty scary when fighting a high-level rogue, but not quite as terrifying as facing the possibility of an extra 5 or 10 dice of wound point damage with a successful sneak attack critical hit. You may find other places where damage needs adjustment in this system as well; don't be afraid to tinker when needed to keep your game fun and exciting.

They say that they know it may need work and that you should do so... it is like making a PHB and saying that they know the classes are not balanced, but that you should do the work yourself...

Anyway, I may make some work into this and be sure it fits well with all this damn system, they just copy pasted it and added some very very important things that they could never leave out, but the minor details they have left open, as it seems...

Anyhow, it is a great system, and I like the saves eadh round for saying alive, very very cinematic!

 

[Ranger REG]

Somehow, I have the feeling they need to label Unearthed Arcana with "For Advanced D&D Users Only."

Which is a kind way of saying, "If you're a D&D Newbie who can't tweak the rules if your life depended on it, GO AWAY. SHOO!"

 

[Jack Daniel]

I run this system with a couple of fixes and patches.

• Sneak attacks, energized weapons, etc., basically anything that is "not multiplied by a critical hit" in the standard rules does not convert to wound damage by my rules.
• Spells that can critically hit only transfer some of their damage to WP, using the caster level as a damage cap.
• All magical healing, even cure spells, restores WP damage first.
• A character naturally heals 1 WP per day, regardless of level.
• Characters die as per the standard rules, "hovering at death's door" between -1 and -9 WP and dead at -10.
• Armor grants DR equal to half its armor bonus, and this DR only protects WP, but isn't bypassed by a critical hit.

My biggest alteration, though, comes in the effects of damage I implemented.

• A wounded character isn't fatigued, but does have to make a Fortitude save vs. DC 5 + the damage, or be knocked out (rather than stunned) for 1d4 rounds.
• A character with 0 VP is fatigued.
• Nonlethal attacks cannot deal WP damage. Instead, they deal VP damage and can even drop a character's VP below 0. A character with negative VPs is both fatigued and staggered, and any damage that does reduce a character to negative VPs calls for a save vs. knockout, just as if the character had taken WP damage. A critical hit with a nonlethal weapon also deals only VP damage, but calls for a save vs. knockout.

 

[Nifelhein]

Hey that is getting pretty complex there huh? and ranger, I agree it seems not for any user but those who already have a good grasp of the "basic" system.

 

[Ranger REG]

It is a bit complex because you have to change the way a lot of D&D elements that inflicts damage: weapons, offensive magic spells, magic items, and class abilities (e.g., Sneak Attack).

Some have already been touched upon in the excerpt, like weapon damage (convert the crit multiplier to a much larger threat range). But we haven't touched upon offensive magic spells, especially when a creature is susceptible to certain attack form; a 6-HD fireball is fatal to a troll.

 

[MadBlue]

I run this system with a couple of fixes and patches.

• Sneak attacks, energized weapons, etc., basically anything that is "not multiplied by a critical hit" in the standard rules does not convert to wound damage by my rules.

I mentioned this in the UA thread, but it's probably more appropriate here. Sneak Attack damage isn't multiplied by a critical hit because it's already assumed to be hitting a vital area. If it only does Vitality damage on a critical hit, it sounds more like you've redefined Sneak Attack to mean you're hitting a pressure point, or some other non-vital area, which is more likely to incapacitate, rather than kill, the subject. Which sounds like as decent a way to convert the ability as converting d6 to 1 Wound point is. My question then is, how does Sneak Attack work on a subject who has no VP left? Does it convert to Wound Damage then or is it non-effective?

• Armor grants DR equal to half its armor bonus, and this DR only protects WP, but isn't bypassed by a critical hit.

What if the DR is higher than the damage that a weapon could feasibly inflict? For example, a dagger in the hands of someone with a 10 STR can only inflict 4 points of damage max. What if the opponent's DR is 4? What if it's not a critical hit? It doesn't make sense that my opponent would allow himself to be worn down (lose VP) by me poking a dagger at him if I can't even get through his armor and do real damage (WP).

Of course, this is was a question I posed when it was announced SWRPG was using the same kind of system. I didn't get an official answer, but somebody argued with me that if my opponent was letting the armor take the blows, he was therefore "helpless" and opened himself up for a coup de grace (then again, the same guy argued that Undead under the WP/VP system would only have VP and zombies would be bobbing and weaving and dodging my blows until they inexplicably collapsed - once all their VP were gone).

Ranger REG - are you saying that they've changed it so DR now protects VP too in SWRPG, or in UA using WP/VP in conjunction with armor providing DR?