D&D 5E (2014) Ultimate Magic Playtesting to Start Next Week

[Erik Mona]

On second thought, you can keep the frankincense....

--Erik

 

[IronWolf]

Has anyone taken a close look at the new class yet? Thoughts?

I've glanced at it, skimmed a few of the Paizo threads on it, but haven't had the chance to read through the class thoroughly yet.

 

[Cor_Malek]

I've glanced over it, drooled for a while and... well and that's that. I like the idea of character, but it's IMO totally imba. Or rather - can be. Most classes power can be tuned to what you want your adventures to look like - you control the amount of wealth, availability of magical items and spells, and accessories (wands, scrolls, potions etc). Ability to create vorpal swords at will? Magus not only has a golf-bag worth of weapons - they're all contained within one sheath.

What I liked about PF is that I was able to keep amount of houserules down, and that I didn't have to ban any classes. Alchemist was kinda stretching it with his unlimited potions, but it has so much RP potential that he's still fun to use.

However, this is not a final build, and more importantly - I didn't see it in play, and won't have an occasion for a while (probably the book will come out before I'd be able to have a go with him). So this could be a monk type of situation - reads much better than plays.

But as is? Magus is IMO totally unusable in worlds or even adventures of magic and power lower than official Golarion. And the name does not fit it at all

But that's my impressions of description of a magus project. As an actual class-type, and a final one? I guess I'll be looking forward to see it's next builds As a hardcore Witcher novels fan, I love this class idea, even if I have technical issues with this version. I hope it'll be changed so that it's more flexible setting-wise, and I look forward to playing it someday.

 

[GrayLinnorm]

Will there be any new magic items in this book?

 

[Stormtower]

It turns out we're going to have 2-3 base classes/anti-paladin style "sub-classes" in Ultimate Combat, although the archetypes system we introduced in the APG will make it very difficult for many more base classes to make it into books, since most of those concepts seem to be relatively easy to pull off with an archetype.

We're still very concerned about rules bloat, but if the right class idea comes along, we'll still do it.

--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing

It's great to hear that Paizo is taking the lead on watchdogging your own rules bloat. I love PFRPG and I buy every supplement you guys publish (charter subscriber since Runelords #1) but too many more hardcover supplements after UC/UM and you'll be on the way to 3.5-era "unintended synergies."

Paizo has a marvellous thing going... I love the cleanliness (for lack of a better term) with which PFRPG plays. Don't go changing it too much from what we've already got.

 

[IronWolf]

<snip>

But that's my impressions of description of a magus project. As an actual class-type, and a final one? I guess I'll be looking forward to see it's next builds As a hardcore Witcher novels fan, I love this class idea, even if I have technical issues with this version. I hope it'll be changed so that it's more flexible setting-wise, and I look forward to playing it someday.

You must spread some Experience Points around....

Thanks for the thoughts!

 

[Steel_Wind]

I've glanced over it, drooled for a while and... well and that's that. I like the idea of character, but it's IMO totally imba. Or rather - can be. Most classes power can be tuned to what you want your adventures to look like - you control the amount of wealth, availability of magical items and spells, and accessories (wands, scrolls, potions etc). Ability to create vorpal swords at will? Magus not only has a golf-bag worth of weapons - they're all contained within one sheath.

And this differs from the Paladin's Bonded Weapon ability how...exactly?

Near as I can tell, there is not a meaningful difference between the two. To the extent that one is more powerful than the other, it is the Paladin's Divine Bond Weapon which remains the superior class ability, overall. Let's look at the Paladin's Divine Bond and compare it with the Magus' Arcane Weapon ability:

Paladin

Divine Bond: Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed. The first type of bond allows the paladin to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a celestial spirit for 1 minute per paladin level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.

Paladin Bonded Weapon Progression:

5th = +1 defending, flaming, keen, merciful
8th = +2 axiomatic, disruption, flaming burst, holy
11th = +3 speed
14th = +4 brilliant energy
17th = +5
20th = +6

The Paladin can add the following abilities, using the + for the ability as reflected in Table 15-9 of the Core Rules: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful, and speed.

Meanwhile, the Magus Bonded Weapon ability works as follows:

Magus

Arcane Weapon (Su): At 4th level, a magus gains the ability to imbue a melee weapon with powerful abilities. When he prepares his spells, he can also spend a portion of this time bonding with a single melee weapon. At 4th level, this grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For
every four levels beyond 4th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5, or they can be used be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal.

Magus Arcane Weapon Progression:

4th = +1 flaming, frost, shock, keen
8th = +2 flaming burst, icy burst, shocking burst
12th = +3 speed
16th = +4 dancing
20th = +5 vorpal

Each of the Paladin and the Magus can add these same bonded weapon abilities: flaming, flaming burst, keen and speed.

Uniquely, the Paladin can add: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, holy and merciful.

Uniquely, the Magus can add: : dancing, frost, icy burst, shock, shocking burst, and vorpal.

In all honesty, I cannot see anything game breaking about the Magus bonded weapon ability. Yes, it can add vorpal – but only at 20th level. Put bluntly, level 20 abilities in Pathfinder RPG amount to little more than flavour text. They have essentially ZERO impact during actual gameplay. Moreover, if you were to take “vorpal” off that list, would anybody seriously complain if the GM just armed his 20th level Magus NPC with a vorpal blade instead anyway? I don’t think so.

In terms of abilities that have significant and REAL effects during actual gameplay at the levels that the overwhelming majority of games are actually played, the Paladin’s abilities of disruption and holy are the real eye-openers which can have a significant effect in game. The Magus has nothing to compete with these extraordinary weapon abilities. Disruption is a save or disintegrate effect vs a raft of typical foes the party will fight - and it's available at 8TH LEVEL!! The game seems to have survived this all the same. I'm not too worried about a 20th level vorpal effect compared to disruption at 8th, frankly. And I suggest you should not be too concerned about it either.

Yes, speed is very powerful, but not at the level that the power is granted (11th and 12th, respectively). The game seems to have survived nicely up until now. If a Paladin can have a weapon of speed at 11th level and the game has not broken, I don’t perceive a significant impact on game balance if the Magus has that ability at 12th level – especially seeing as he already has a resort to haste FAR earlier than 12th level already in the game (as does everybody else, in practice).

Sorry, but I am unable to see your criticisms of the Magus bonded weapon ability as being reasonably grounded. These criticisms simply don’t survive dispassionate scrutiny and rational analysis.

 

[Erik Mona]

Will there be any new magic items in this book?

No.

At least not according to the present outline.

--Erik

 

[DogBackward]

Looking over the early bits (the stuff I'll be playing in an upcoming Kingmaker and a separate homebrew game), I'm kinda disappointed. It seems like an awesome class to start, until you realize that Spellstrike is utterly useless in all but a few extremely rare cases. As clarified at Paizo, you cast a touch spell and hold the charge, then can deliver it through a melee attack. So, you take two rounds to cast a touch spell and then attack with it, adding your weapon damage. As opposed to taking one round to cast a touch spell and deliver it, then just attacking next round. So, I can have a great chance of getting off my touch spell and an okay chance of getting off my attack, or take two rounds to have an okay chance of hitting with both at once, in return for missing what would usually have been an auto-hit with a touch attack if my melee attack misses. Unless you have an extra turn in which you can't attack anybody (even a ranged attack is better), this is pretty much a useless ability.

Spell Combat is better, despite the unfortunate name (I still prefer Armed Casting). But it's a lot of modifiers to keep track of, especially for a useful, powerful ability you'll wanna use as often as possible. It's a great ability, but it needs to be cleaner.

I also think there should be a 3+Int. per day ability at first level. Two spells and a nigh useless class feature aren't nearly enough.

Later levels seem pretty good, though the capstone is lacking a bit. Not needing to make Concentration checks to cast defensively is kinda pointless when most casters will have a near auto-success by then anyway. It's useful in that you don't have to roll and hope not to get a 1, but not a huge deal. The second part is a good ability, but not really on par with things like death attacks (that even the bloody Bards get now) and other such huge end-game abilities.

Most of the Magus Arcana seem pretty good, though the 1/day spontaneous metamagic ones need to gain extra uses at higher levels. A once per day Silent or Still is not gonna cut it after 15+ levels.

I'm gonna play two of these here soon, so maybe Spellstrike will be more useful in play than it looks, but I don't see it happening. I just love the idea too much to not give it a try. I've always been a fan of warrior-mages.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Looking over the early bits (the stuff I'll be playing in an upcoming Kingmaker and a separate homebrew game), I'm kinda disappointed. It seems like an awesome class to start, until you realize that Spellstrike is utterly useless in all but a few extremely rare cases. As clarified at Paizo, you cast a touch spell and hold the charge, then can deliver it through a melee attack. So, you take two rounds to cast a touch spell and then attack with it, adding your weapon damage. As opposed to taking one round to cast a touch spell and deliver it, then just attacking next round. So, I can have a great chance of getting off my touch spell and an okay chance of getting off my attack, or take two rounds to have an okay chance of hitting with both at once, in return for missing what would usually have been an auto-hit with a touch attack if my melee attack misses. Unless you have an extra turn in which you can't attack anybody (even a ranged attack is better), this is pretty much a useless ability.

Spell Combat is better, despite the unfortunate name (I still prefer Armed Casting). But it's a lot of modifiers to keep track of, especially for a useful, powerful ability you'll wanna use as often as possible. It's a great ability, but it needs to be cleaner.

You can combine spellstrike and Spell combat.
Using spell combat cast Shocking grasp then -4 hit penalty (if made concentration check) use Spellstrike to hit them with sword and shocking grasp.

Get used to shocking grasp because so far that is only touch range spell for awhile.