D&D (2024) Uncommon items - actually common?

[ezo]

The issue is the name.

It shouldn't be "common, uncommon, rare, very rare, legendary, artifact"

It should be "minor, major, powerful, very powerful, legendary, artifact"

Partly, I suppose...

But the real issue is how commonplace magic is in 5E, including the inferences about magical items.

The fact you can buy potions of healing and/or minor scrolls on the equipment list, for instance?

The idea that once wildly sought after items, such as bag of holding and gauntlets of ogre power are now considered "uncommon" items.

A world of prevalent magic would be so completely foreign to us I don't think anyone can really comprehend all the widespread implications of such a place and how wildly different it would be from our own world. For some, perhaps that is their goal? Not, of course, for me.

I suppose, in a nutshell, for me there should be no such thing as a "common" (or "minor" if you prefer) magical item.

 

[tetrasodium]

Partly, I suppose...

But the real issue is how commonplace magic is in 5E, including the inferences about magical items.

The fact you can buy potions of healing and/or minor scrolls on the equipment list, for instance?

The idea that once wildly sought after items, such as bag of holding and gauntlets of ogre power are now considered "uncommon" items.

A world of prevalent magic would be so completely foreign to us I don't think anyone can really comprehend all the widespread implications of such a place and how wildly different it would be from our own world. For some, perhaps that is their goal? Not, of course, for me.

I suppose, in a nutshell, for me there should be no such thing as a "common" (or "minor" if you prefer) magical item.

This is written across page 119-120 of the AD&D2e DMG
In addition, a potion requires a number of mundane ingre-
dients. The basic cost of these ingredients ranges from 200
to 1,000 gp. The DM should decide this based on how com-
mon the potion is, its power, and the nature of the ingredients
he has specified. A potion of dragon control is a rare item of
great power and so should cost the full 1,000 gp. A potion of
healing is a fairly necessary item, something the DM may
want to be readily available to the characters. Therefore, it
should be cheap, costing no more than 200 gp.
The ability to buy potions of healing is not the problem.


The problem is rooted more in the way that 5e is designed to give the feel of PCs with too many powerful magic items in old editions without actually needing any magic items. It doesn't help matters that magic items themselves are bizarrely grouped in such a useless way that they don't fit the magic item expectations(or math) of any setting

 

[Minigiant]

Partly, I suppose...

But the real issue is how commonplace magic is in 5E, including the inferences about magical items.

The fact you can buy potions of healing and/or minor scrolls on the equipment list, for instance?

The idea that once wildly sought after items, such as bag of holding and gauntlets of ogre power are now considered "uncommon" items.

A world of prevalent magic would be so completely foreign to us I don't think anyone can really comprehend all the widespread implications of such a place and how wildly different it would be from our own world. For some, perhaps that is their goal? Not, of course, for me.

I suppose, in a nutshell, for me there should be no such thing as a "common" (or "minor" if you prefer) magical item.

Well minor potions of healing, that's barely magic. Any place that can support an alchemist, apothecary, druggist, pharmacist, house of healing, or a "witch" would have potions of healing for sale.

How many? and How frequently stock is replenished? That's a setting thing.

Scrolls? Well that comes to how many mages are in your world.

Once you say that a player's wizard dies and they can Come back into the campaign by replacing the dead wizard with a whole nother wizard, you kind of made a world where there are enough wizards to have at least the most minor scrolls for sale.

If my wizard can find scrolls and my wizard is not the only wizard in the world, Then there should be some places that have scrolls.

It quickly becomes if you don't want magic treasure, you going to have to ban magic classes.

 

[kigmatzomat]

You know, I wish they had taken a page from 3e and had a class/level demographic. I don't even care what the numbers are, just that it provides a baseline for people to use for "low/normal/high" magic.

E.g. in a city of 10,000 it would be typical to have wizards of 9th, 8th, 7th x2, 6th x2, 5th x4, 4th x4, 3rd x8, 2nd x8, 1st x16 and clerics of 10th, 9th, 8th x2, 7th x2, 6th x4, 5th x4, 4th x8, 3rd x8, 2nd x16, 1st x16. This sets a baseline assumption that 52 casters could create Continual Flames.

I personally like settings having high level casters while also thinking this is kind of crazy pants for a city of 10,000, but it gives a common baseline for discussion (and also explains why 3e was, relatively speaking, knee deep in magic).

 

[Xetheral]

Assuming that blade is less than 4 feet long, sure. Longsword blades would work, just be sure to package them carefully so you don't spill all your good onto the astral plane as you said. But if we assume each blade is in a 3 inch square sheath (it's actually wider than deep, but I don't want to do that math), you get 64 blades in a bag. You don't get anywhere near 250 blades because of the bulk that you're ignoring. Not that most people pay attention to the details, mind you. Of course you could put them all into a single container for shipping ... hmm.

Let's just say I'm not convinced you could get 250 blades in there but I'm too lazy and not good enough at the math off the top of my head to figure out the actual number. More importantly how often are you you would regularly shipping that many blades to one destination for direct sale? These are naked blades, not the finished product, no crosspiece because that would increase the bulk dramatically so they still need that work done before sale to the final customer. Sending to a retailer to split up and redistribute? Sure. But then you're not getting anything near retail price for a sword because they have to finish assembly, store the goods, then ship off to multiple locations where using a bag of holding becomes less worthwhile.

On the other hand, using a completely random object, a real world longbow wouldn't fit. So how many valuable trade goods would fit? But yes, for certain goods it may be worthwhile. What percentage of goods is that? It may worth it to a merchant trading in other high quality goods where you can fit multiple into the bag. The majority of goods that would fit in a bag of holding are not that expensive per pound or are too large to fit in the bag.

All of which doesn't account for supply, demand and the impact of lower shipping costs. Spice prices were inflated because of shipping costs, but if it's as easy as stuffing a bag of holding full then the supply increases dramatically which deflates the cost which drops the profit margin. Since I don't have a masters degree in economics I'll just say that it would be complicated.

Even though the bag's interior dimensions are limited to 2x2x4 in the 2024 text, the bag can still explictly hold up to 64 cubic feet of material. So it can magically hold four 2x2x4 objects, or 256 of your 3"x3"x4' longsword blades.

 

[ezo]

The ability to buy potions of healing is not the problem.

I disagree, it is part of the problem. The idea that something "magical" is available for purchase as easily as a chain shirt or a heavy crossbow is most definitely part of the problem. It implies it is not, truly, magical---but really something mundane.

The problem is rooted more in the way that 5e is designed to give the feel of PCs with too many powerful magic items in old editions without actually needing any magic items.

This is part of the problem as well.

It doesn't help matters that magic items themselves are bizarrely grouped in such a useless way that they don't fit the magic item expectations(or math) of any setting

Agreed.

Well minor potions of healing, that's barely magic. Any place that can support an alchemist, apothecary, druggist, pharmacist, house of healing, or a "witch" would have potions of healing for sale.

That is precisely part of the point to my issue with "commonplace" magic, even of the "minor" variety... (see my response above!)

How many? and How frequently stock is replenished? That's a setting thing.

Scrolls? Well that comes to how many mages are in your world.

Sure, but 5E's design set the precedence IMO.

Once you say that a player's wizard dies and they can Come back into the campaign by replacing the dead wizard with a whole nother wizard, you kind of made a world where there are enough wizards to have at least the most minor scrolls for sale.

These are not necessarily connected.

If my wizard can find scrolls and my wizard is not the only wizard in the world, Then there should be some places that have scrolls.

This makes no sense. If you wizard can find scrolls, then of courses there are some places that have scrolls...

It quickly becomes if you don't want magic treasure, you going to have to ban magic classes.

Again, not connected really. I can easily have magical classes without magic treasure. I don't see how you think one implies the other. Do you care to clarify??

 

[Minigiant]

Sure, but 5E's design set the precedence IMO.

AD&D set the precedent.

Old school dungeons were flooded with potions.
They had to come from somewhere.

These are not necessarily connected.

They kind of are unless your wizard is the only wizard in the country.

Unless the previous generations of spellcasters are all dead or left the area, There must be someone in the area able to do those actions.

D&D never had the assumption that most other magic users and spell casting priest were dead.

If your wizard died, you can reroll another one. Creating a new wizard or cleric was not some hard prestige ability. You just had to roll good on intelligence or wisdom.

That was the crux of the issue. People wanted to create settings that did not match the rules.

This makes no sense. If you wizard can find scrolls, then of courses there are some places that have scrolls.

Exactly. Therefore there would be places that would have people able to create scrolls who might sell them.

Again, not connected really. I can easily have magical classes without magic treasure. I don't see how you think one implies the other. Do you care to clarify??

The point is that that was never the default of D&D

The Wizard class was always designed around getting magical treasure. Magic scrolls and Spell books.

The Fighter class was always designed around getting magical treasure. Magic weapons that bypassed the monster armor.

To to play D&D without magic treasure you would have to change the assumptions of the game. The number one change would be that there would be increased spellcasters who could teach wizards new spells or cast magic weapon on fighter weapons.

You needed magical treasure to fight the stuff quartered the better magical treasure. If you took out the magical treasure then those things that normally defended the magical treasure would be invincible. So you would have to add more mages or more consumables as replacements for the magical dragon.

To kill the Dragon in the dungeon your fighter needed:

1. A magic weapon
2. A magic ally who can cast Magic Weapon
3. A magic oil or potion that turned his normal weapon into a magic weapon.

D&D since first edition defaulted to (1).
5e was the first to default to (2) or (3).

However since 5E said that a player can make a PC any class and is Not forced to play a class that was required to defeat any particular monster, magic hirelings on magic potions had to be sellable

 

[tetrasodium]

I disagree, it is part of the problem. The idea that something "magical" is available for purchase as easily as a chain shirt or a heavy crossbow is most definitely part of the problem. It implies it is not, truly, magical---but really something mundane.

Going to disagree on the healing potion and expand upon both why it doesn't check the box you are describing and why other design elements create that box. IF PCs needed bulk purchase of healing potions instead of yo-yo healing and trivialized explosive rest that quickly granted complete recovery then potions would be responsible for that box. As it is though potions can't even find footing in supporting it because elements like death saves yoyo healing and the resting rules 5e has so effectively built that box out of blast proof concrete and adamantine before potions can even come in sight if maybe even contributing to it.

Ironically if the design were not so hostile to anything but super hero one true wayism it would be trivial for the GM to adjust where they want to dial things based on quantity and type of healing potions that they make available to players

This is part of the problem as well.


Agreed.


That is precisely part of the point to my issue with "commonplace" magic, even of the "minor" variety... (see my response above!)


Sure, but 5E's design set the precedence IMO.


These are not necessarily connected.


This makes no sense. If you wizard can find scrolls, then of courses there are some places that have scrolls...


Again, not connected really. I can easily have magical classes without magic treasure. I don't see how you think one implies the other. Do you care to clarify??

Like was noted in Post 47, the old editions were absolutely flooded with a reasonably steady scrolls and potions, multiple classes depended on that flow. Those classes didn't stop depending on the flow, witch just Changed the math so the game starts tearing itself apart when you add them and those classes still fail at living up to their expectations when not given magic items because they still depend on them and can't have them provided.

5e continuing to allow players the option of purchasing healing potions as they could for a few non-adeu editions now doesn't rate high enough impact to even contribute.

 

[ezo]

AD&D set the president.

Old school dungeons were flooded with potions.
They had to come from somewhere.

No, it didn't set it.

FWIW, the word is precedent, not president (auto-correct???).

You found the potions in the dungeons, you didn't buy them commonly in a local adventurer's supply store along with your chain shirt and heavy crossbow...

They kind of are unless your wizard is the only wizard in the country.

Unless the previous generations of spellcasters are all dead or left the area, There must be someone in the area able to do those actions.

D&D never had the assumption that most other magic users and spell casting priest were dead.

If your wizard died, you can reroll another one. Creating a new wizard or cleric was not some hard prestige ability. You just had to roll good on intelligence or wisdom.

That was the crux of the issue. People wanted to create settings that did not match the rules.

This has NOTHING to do with a PC wizard dying and then them bringing in another wizard. How is that supposed to be connected to spell scrolls...???

"Once you say that a player's wizard dies and they can Come back into the campaign by replacing the dead wizard with a whole nother wizard, you kind of made a world where there are enough wizards to have at least the most minor scrolls for sale."

I still fail to see any connection whatsoever.

Exactly. Therefore there would be places that would have people able to create scrolls who might sell them.

Sell them? Why?

I find a scroll in an ancient tomb, not at my local market...

The point is that that was never the default of D&D

I never said it was... but that has nothing to do with what you wrote as I can see it:

"It quickly becomes if you don't want magic treasure, you going to have to ban magic classes."

To to play D&D without magic treasure you would have to change the assumptions of the game. The number one change would be that there would be increased spellcasters who could teach wizards new spells or cast magic weapon on fighter weapons.

5E is designed to NOT require any magic treasure--so no changes would be needed at all if I wanted to play it without magical items.

We're not talking about removing magic items from AD&D, but from 5E.

My point is concerning 5E, so let's keep it about 5E, shall we? Thanks.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Uncommon is more "luxury item" - are Mercedes-Benz cars common? No, they're uncommon, but not because they're hard to find. They're just harder to acquire.