Undead PC's

[pawsplay]

That is not true.

I really wasn't talking about what was true. The idea that a drow vampire isn't affected by daylight is pretty ridiculous. But by a strict reading of the rules, it's possible to come to that conclusion.

What the rules say is that creatures who are destroyed by sunlight are not affected. Drow vampires are destroyed by sunlight. Therefore, they are not affected. What the rules probably meant was that daylight is not sunlight for the purposes of destroying creatures who are destroyed by sunlight.

 

[Shin Okada]

I really wasn't talking about what was true. The idea that a drow vampire isn't affected by daylight is pretty ridiculous. But by a strict reading of the rules, it's possible to come to that conclusion.

Well, the spell's name, "Daylight", could be a kind of misnomer. But I don't think "strict reading" is needed in this case, as the spell's descriptive text is saying that the light created by this spell is not true sunlight.

What the rules say is that creatures who are destroyed by sunlight are not affected. Drow vampires are destroyed by sunlight. Therefore, they are not affected. What the rules probably meant was that daylight is not sunlight for the purposes of destroying creatures who are destroyed by sunlight.

If you are talking about Libris Mortis clarification, I think it is not possible to conclude that Drow Vampire cannot be blinded/dazzled by light created by Daylight spell. Daylight spell doesn't have any special effect undead. So it works just like ordinary bright light source. And because of Light Blindness trait drows and drow vampires are blinded/dazzled by any blight light. In this case, Daylight spell is not producing any special effect on vampire drow. It is just creating ordinary bright light.

 

[prospero63]

+1 for Radiant Servants of Pelor. Running one and he cuts through undead like a hot knife through melting butter...

Also, not sure if you have clarified it yet or not (still reading the thread) but the level adjustments should have been huge here. There should have been levels and levels that went by where the druid and spell thief got more and more powerful and the lich and vampire spawn twiddled their thumbs paying LA's...

 

[Don Ventresca]

Wait, I specifically remember reading you can;t play a creature with a 0 in any score, so why would the people at wizard make it legal to play a lich?

 

[javcs]

Wait, I specifically remember reading you can;t play a creature with a 0 in any score, so why would the people at wizard make it legal to play a lich?

A 0 score is a -5 modifier. All undead (and most constructs) have a Constitution score of "-", that is, they don't have one, their Con modifier is +0. Not having a score and having a score of 0 are two very different things.

2 undead in a party, both of whom have used their resistance to true death? Stick a couple Inevitables (whichever variety is responsible for enforcing death) on the two of them (at least one each) - depending on how thoroughly you want them beaten, either advance the Inevitables' HD or give them class levels in an appropriately anti-Undead themed class or PRC.

 

[Marred_Bard]

@ robertliguori: Regarding the Lich, won't that only hold him for about 8 hours? He can recover spells after then, so unless you're talking about a Permanence-ed Dimensionally Anchored, Magic Circle Against Evil-ed, Magic Circle Against Undead-ed, etc. prison, he might manage to get out. I'm not suggesting that you haven't thought it through, rather I'm curious. I chose the spells that I thought would prevent teleportation/planeswalking and domination/suggestion, but there's always the instance of finding that one spell that doesn't have verbal, somatic, material or focus requirements and exploiting it. What would you do to keep him in there?

@ topic: I think the horse is looking a bit less attractive now that it's all dead and corpsified, but I'll aim another kick at it for the hell of it. As has been said, there's a level-gap that seems to be unaccounted-for so far. Maruts are fine (@ javcs), as are anit-undead classes/items. But the biggest anit-undead measures I can think of is to stick them on the Plane of Positive Energy for a good, hard fight. The other two will manage okay (if the druid has healing spells prepared) once they deal with the 'no air' problem, but the two undead should be ill-at-ease, to say the least. I know that the Positive Energy Plane doesn't kill them automatically, but if some force were to cause a flare-up of energy bursts (3d10 temp hp gained, but let's do the math and subtract it from undead, shall we?) it would threaten the PCs equally while putting the undead at a disadvantage when dealing with any encounters you wish to stage.

 

[irdeggman]

And you are totally right about the imbalance between the PC's. If anything, that is what I dont like the most. But then again, those PC's were offered any class or race with a level box.

This is the absolute root of your problem. You did not understand the 3.5 system.

When you gave them a "level box" you didn't say create an ECL X character. You appear to have merely said X class levels and then allowed the "more knowledgeable players" to work the system and add in races/types that boosted the ECL and didn't factor that in for party equality. That and the fact that the sudden gain in ECL from the templates automatically places the game out of balance between PCs - which is why I like what WotC did with the Savage Progressions (from their web site) and the information in Savage Species - both give ways of gradually accounting for such increase in ECL so that it is more evenly spread out instead of a sudden gain of +4 to +8 in ECL.


Did the Lich pay the xp cost in addition to the gp for his phylactery?

Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

Doesn't that negative energy burst that heals the vampire spawn also hurt the non-undead in the party?

 

[irdeggman]

Also, not sure if you have clarified it yet or not (still reading the thread) but the level adjustments should have been huge here. There should have been levels and levels that went by where the druid and spell thief got more and more powerful and the lich and vampire spawn twiddled their thumbs paying LA's...

This is the real key that needs to be accounted for.

OP as you stated early that you sometimes throw really powerful foes that the 2 non-undead can't cope with - it is actually appropriate because of the actual ECL of the party.

The 2 non-undead PC's players should be really upset with the imbalance in the game - I know I would be if suddenly 2 other players were given such a huge level increase for their characters and I wasnt offered the same for mine.

 

[Alasgore]

Personally I think lich and Vampire PC's are very hard to effectively meld with almost any player combination less than 8 player. The two templates were originally NPC only, plus they have such high LA's and lack of HD that any hope of using a slower progression (such as a monster class) is next to impossible. Liches are still over powered, and vampires unbalanced. As for fixing the damage, a resurrection spell is a potent weapon against sentient undead, but your world sounds low magic so a raise dead spell will remove the template and it will bum em down a level, and from experience level loss is very humbling

 

[irdeggman]

Personally I think lich and Vampire PC's are very hard to effectively meld with almost any player combination less than 8 player. The two templates were originally NPC only, plus they have such high LA's and lack of HD that any hope of using a slower progression (such as a monster class) is next to impossible. Liches are still over powered, and vampires unbalanced. As for fixing the damage, a resurrection spell is a potent weapon against sentient undead, but your world sounds low magic so a raise dead spell will remove the template and it will bum em down a level, and from experience level loss is very humbling

Here is the link to WotC's Savage Progressions article that has the lich progression.

Savage Progressions: Lich and Weretiger Template Classes

And here is the vampire (it also explains how the acquiring a template mid-campaign works)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a