Undead subject to sleep?

[Jack99]

In the Mummy (the movie), the Mummy (the egyptian guy, not the movie) actually sleeps at some point. Ergo undead sleep, because if it is in a movie, it is the truth!

At least I think so, maybe someone with a better memory than me can confirm this

 

[malraux]

Zombies seem to have a day/night cycle. In most movies, there are normally few zombies around in the day, and the ones that are around are typically drowsy/weaker.

 

[Crashy75]

I think you can just take it that undead are immune to sleep. Just because it isn't explicit in the info we have now doesn't mean that it will not in the final print, and if it isn't then it is an error.

I understand some of the reasoning in this thread, but the fact is, with the exception of the vampire, undead don't sleep. And in the case of the vampire I don't actually see that as sleep. It is more like that during the day the vampire must return to the grave and be dead (as if their unlife switches off and they become inanimate) until the sun sets which isn't the same thing.

If we assume that the sleep spell suppresses consciousness, or awareness of one's surroundings, and we assume that the undead have some sort of awareness of their surroundings, then we can assume that undead would be affected by this spell.

Also, it doesn't necessarily follow that undead would be immune to sleep because they do not sleep. Just because a human doesn't go through periods of total cell death during his existence does not mean that a human is not subject to death. That the undead may or may not go through periods of 'unawareness' in their normal existence does not mean that they couldn't be magically compelled to enter a state of unawareness.

 

[Thattanguy]

From my understanding, Undead are _magicaly_ brought back to life to varieing degrees, from instinctual awareness of the mindless zombie to the rebinding of a soul in a lich's phylactery. At the baseline of them all is a current of magic on which they survive, much as living creatures on oxygen. Supress that magical awareness, that compulsion imposed apon an inert corpse from some magical source, and it makes sense that the corpse will cease to be ambilitory, even if only short duration. Sleep might be better worded as Supress Awareness but then it loses its fantastic feel and starts drifting to the realms of sci-fi to me.

Much the same for the general "mind-effecting" field of magic. if you think about it, the necromancer who raises a skeleton is exerting his will through magic to compel the inanimate to move and act in accordance to his designs. even if left to its own actions after animation, its is the raiser's will, though magic, that allows the corpse to function untill destroyed or the magic ceases to effect it. Thus, it seems to follow suit that another could use magic in an attempt to overwrite or supress the magic compelling the corpse to function. Since it is a different type of magical compusion, should it be more difficult to overwrite the animating effect? That makes sense, but in the example of a 1st level necromancer's skeleton being happened apon by a 15th level enchanter, the latter's magic should unquestionaly by strong enough to superceed the formers.

 

[Simonides]

From my understanding, Undead are _magicaly_ brought back to life to varieing degrees, from instinctual awareness of the mindless zombie to the rebinding of a soul in a lich's phylactery. At the baseline of them all is a current of magic on which they survive, much as living creatures on oxygen. Supress that magical awareness, that compulsion imposed apon an inert corpse from some magical source, and it makes sense that the corpse will cease to be ambilitory, even if only short duration. Sleep might be better worded as Supress Awareness but then it loses its fantastic feel and starts drifting to the realms of sci-fi to me.

Much the same for the general "mind-effecting" field of magic. if you think about it, the necromancer who raises a skeleton is exerting his will through magic to compel the inanimate to move and act in accordance to his designs. even if left to its own actions after animation, its is the raiser's will, though magic, that allows the corpse to function untill destroyed or the magic ceases to effect it. Thus, it seems to follow suit that another could use magic in an attempt to overwrite or supress the magic compelling the corpse to function. Since it is a different type of magical compusion, should it be more difficult to overwrite the animating effect? That makes sense, but in the example of a 1st level necromancer's skeleton being happened apon by a 15th level enchanter, the latter's magic should unquestionaly by strong enough to superceed the formers.

Well, if we assume that a more powerful necromancer (or natural magical affect; W&M implies the Shadowfell 'leaks' into the real world and can spontaneously animate dead) will produce more powerful forms of undead, their resistance to lower level enchantments would be modeled by their higher Will defense at the least.

Personally, I am fine with 'sleep' and other compulsions and mind-effects working on undead based on the fact that undead are, in some sense, at least as conscious as animals. The lowliest skeleton or zombie is aware of its surroundings, responds to stimuli, and can interact with its environment in some rudimentary way (it can move around an obstacle, shrink and cower from a holy symbol, and so on). In fact, I never liked the 'mindless' descriptor for vermin, undead, and constructs precisely because of this. Their 'mind' wasn't very impressive, granted, but something was driving the creature's behavior. Blah, blah, blah - philosophical discourse on behaviorism - it doesn't matter. Point is, I like undead being affected by sleep and other compulsions.

 

[kennew142]

The new body, soul, animus paradigm for 4e works out well too. Sleep could be a spell that affects the animus and thus it affects living and unliving creatures equally.

In living creatures, they have a soul so while the animus sleeps the soul keeps active, hence dreams. But in unliving creatures, they simply lose consciousness and go into a dreamless torpor while the animus is suppressed.

I like this a lot. Ancient philosophers often referred to death as a great sleep, claiming that a man is never so close to death as when he is dreaming. I have no problem with undead being affected by magical sleep. I don't even have a problem with undead sleeping (although they probably shouldn't need to sleep). I imagine the characters moving through a long sealed mausoleum. In the crypts the dead lie sleeping their dreamless sleep, until something penetrates their torpor - and they begin to stir.

I hadn't thought about it before, but why shouldn't undead sleep. I would imagine that they would have no actual need for sleep, but it could overtake them if there is nothing to engage their minds.

For some reason I keep thinking of dead gods:

In R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu lies dreaming.
But that is not dead, which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons, even death may die.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I am also rather fond of the idea that sleep magic affects the animus (after all, the "soul" can remain active in a dream state while the body sleeps), and because of that I have no problem with sleep affecting undead.

I imagine that we will see undead who are immune to sleep effects, but I like the fact that creature types no longer come with pre-determined special abilities that may or may not be appropriate for a specific creature.

 

[Baka no Hentai]

You can also look at cinematic depictions of Zombies to argue that sleep and mind effects should impact them... after all, what is the common method of killing a zombie in movies? Injury to the brain.

In such films it would seem that Zombies still need brain activity to function, and if that is the case it would make sense that they would need a "reboot" cycle just like humans do.

Of course, in most of those movies we dont actually see Zombies sleeping... but then again, we generally dont see them until they have some living humans to interact with, and who would want to sleep when there are protagonist brains to eat?

 

[Kwalish Kid]

But is that sleep or merely a "stand-by" mode?

I think I'll only answer this question after I take some time to consider the love of electronics expressed by the writers of classic fantasy and horror.

 

[vagabundo]

I vote for our new sleeping zombie overlords.

I am also in favour of sleep affecting most creatures, it is magic after all.

Less fiddly immunities are good in my opinion, I often forgot about SR and was inconsistent with DR.

And I could never find undead traits, or any of the traits, when I needed them.