Undead subject to sleep?

[Dannyalcatraz]

But within the context of the discussion, that's the difference between undead (at least one kind) being affected by "Sleep" effects which operate upon the being's consciousness and a "Hold" which operates on the physical mechanics of the being.

...which, BTW, translates into me being of the opinion that there need be only one "Hold" spell- such a spell operates by locking the joints of a creature into immobility.

 

[hong]

But within the context of the discussion, that's the difference between undead (at least one kind) being affected by "Sleep" effects which operate upon the being's consciousness and a "Hold" which operates on the physical mechanics of the being.

The discussion is whether sleep works on undead. Clearly (so far as is known), it does. Everything else is imputation.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The discussion is whether sleep works on undead.

With a healthy undercurrent of "should it?"

Personally, I lean towards "no," but that's me at this time. It may not be that big a deal in the context of the rules as a whole, but I won't know that until my preorder arrives.

 

[LowSpine]

I think you can just take it that undead are immune to sleep. Just because it isn't explicit in the info we have now doesn't mean that it will not in the final print, and if it isn't then it is an error.

I understand some of the reasoning in this thread, but the fact is, with the exception of the vampire, undead don't sleep. And in the case of the vampire I don't actually see that as sleep. It is more like that during the day the vampire must return to the grave and be dead (as if their unlife switches off and they become inanimate) until the sun sets which isn't the same thing.

 

[hong]

With a healthy undercurrent of "should it?"

And the answer is, "why not?" You can find reasons why undead should be immune. You can also find reasons why undead should be susceptible. When dealing with matters of fiction and make-believe, what matters is not that a handwave can be found opposing it, but that a handwave can be found in support of it.

 

[Revinor]

Question is not if 'sleep' should work on undead, question is do we want it to?

If no, accept that you are gimping mages and possibly few other future classes (maybe even a lot more). In game explanation then is simple.

If yes, balance is as designed, and we just assume that sleep works on 'animus' part of the being, first slowing it down then putting in some kind of slumber (not physical one with snoring, magical one affecting only the animus).

That's it. Both explanations are valid, there is no point in deciding which one is more 'realistic' - both are and both aren't. Decide on the effect based on game balance you want to achieve.

 

[Mephistopheles]

With a healthy undercurrent of "should it?"

Personally, I lean towards "no," but that's me at this time. It may not be that big a deal in the context of the rules as a whole, but I won't know that until my preorder arrives.

My immediate reaction is similar: it just doesn't seem right that sleep should work on undead. That reaction, however, is based on experience and many years of conditioning from previous editions of D&D.

 

[LowSpine]

I wouldn't have a problem with the slow effecting the undead - it's just sleep doesn't really fit no matter how you wangle it. Interesting though.

 

[med stud]

I'm sure if one looked in myth, legend, and other fiction, we'd find the vast majority of constructs & undead neither sleep nor are affected by magical compulsions to sleep or mimic other bodily function.

I don't remember any myth that deals with undead and magical compulsions to sleep. There really aren't many prejudices regarding this before D&D. Therefore, there really is no reason for undead being immune to sleep.

There could be logical reasons, but the existance of undead invalidates real world logic when it comes to sleeping.

 

[Dausuul]

I think you can just take it that undead are immune to sleep. Just because it isn't explicit in the info we have now doesn't mean that it will not in the final print, and if it isn't then it is an error.

I understand some of the reasoning in this thread, but the fact is, with the exception of the vampire, undead don't sleep. And in the case of the vampire I don't actually see that as sleep. It is more like that during the day the vampire must return to the grave and be dead (as if their unlife switches off and they become inanimate) until the sun sets which isn't the same thing.

"The fact is?"

The fact is, there are no undead. We're talking about mythological creatures here. Many undead in mythology, including vampires and most "tomb-dwellers" such as mummies and draugr (wights), spend a large part of their time in a dormant state. Ghosts likewise, if you assume that the ghost is dormant any time it isn't actively manifesting.

Is that dormant state "sleep?" So far as I know, there are no myths or legends about vampires being subjected to EEGs, so it remains an open question--which means you can define it either way. It is convenient for WotC to define it as sleep (or at least close enough to sleep that the sleep spell works on undead), so that's how they've done it.