Underpowered Guns in d20 Modern (rant, long)

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Aside from the examples I quoted, my main reason for arguing this is that it's the assumption that the experience point award system uses: 2 Cr 10 creatures is an EL 12 encounter, 4 is EL 14, 8 is EL 16, and so forth until the numbers break down at large mobs of creatures. It may not be true, but it is the impression the game designers seem to have been laboring under.

I have to say, though, that it doesn't work quite as well in D20 Modern, although I think they use the same system, because high-level Modern characters are not usually as radically better-equipped than their low-level counterparts as they are in D&D.

I think it works better in Modern, because of the lower focus on gear. Really, does anyone think a 14th-level fighter NPC is equivalent to a 14th-level fighter PC? It's a lot closer in Modern, however - the NPC gets fewer APs, that's about it.

 

[takyris]

Eh, yes, I have a problem with the idea that "causing him to lose footing" is reflected in a loss of hit points requiring days to heal!

As opposed to the much more reasonable "You were at -9 hit points, six seconds away from death as a result of having been hit by a car and then blown up by dynamite, but thanks to surgery and first aid, you'll be able to compete in that iron-man triathalon in three days with no physical problems whatsoever" scenario?

The D&D hit point mechanic was designed to reflect _damage_, not near misses. Essentially, it reflects damage proportionate to total hp, so 25/50 looks much the same as 3/6, and 3/50 looks much worse than 3/6.

I'd like to amicably disagree. I think that at 3/6, you should look worse than at 25/50. Just in terms of how many of those hit points are coming from Con (your actual toughness and ability to soak damage), that makes more sense to me. The guy with 3/6 has just taken a punch to the jaw. The guy with 25/50 has been shot at multiple times and possibly scraped up his knee diving for cover or something.

After long-duration full-contact sparring, I'm sore for at least two days, sometimes three -- and that's a combination of getting banged up but not seriously injured as well as general muscle soreness. I can easily see a 10th level hero who has about 50 hit points, and 25/50 represents being scuffed a bit but mostly just sore and with a couple pulled muscles from trying to avoid that claymore that was coming his way. In two days, he'll be at 45/50 without resting all day or even getting First Aid -- meaning that he might have one sore muscle still, or something like that. Give him First Aid in the form of "Here, take these, they're good for muscle pain", and he's fine in two days on average. Two days to complete health feels much more like pulled muscles than bullet wounds.

It does a terrible job of reflecting genres where high-level heroes are never hit (and killed by a single bullet if they are hit). Different genres need different rules.

Well, I disagree, but it's all in how you interpret things. No system is perfect for everything. You twist it so that the injury concept works for you, and I twist it so that the healing concept works for me.

 

[S'mon]

As opposed to the much more reasonable "You were at -9 hit points, six seconds away from death as a result of having been hit by a car and then blown up by dynamite, but thanks to surgery and first aid, you'll be able to compete in that iron-man triathalon in three days with no physical problems whatsoever" scenario?

Yeah, I find this is a big problem when I run the low-magic Conan game, where healing is nonmagical. In 1e if you fell to negative hp you were always incapacitated for at least a week, that was much more plausible and could still be used as desired now as a house rule, I'll prob use it for modern games now I think about it, thanks . In many ways 3e moved away from realism, and this causes trouble when trying to play 'real world' genres.

 

[S'mon]

3/6 = 25/50 in that in 3e they take the same time to heal, since healing rate is proportionate to level. 25/50 might be a single stab wound or multiple minor wounds, 3/6 most likely a single wound of equal seriousness.

 

[Chainsaw Mage]

In many ways 3e moved away from realism, and this causes trouble when trying to play 'real world' genres.

This assumes that d20 Modern was designed for 'real world' games, yet it really wasn't. It was designed for 'cinematic action'. Big difference. To use but one example, the film DIE HARD is about as close to 'real world' as LORD OF THE RINGS. Which is to say, both are sheer fantasy.


But again comes the eternal question: since when did 'realism' become fun?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

But again comes the eternal question: since when did 'realism' become fun?

I don't know, but some people see D20 Modern as more realistic than DnD. Even if you're not using FX, it's not more realistic and isn't supposed to be.

 

[S'mon]

This assumes that d20 Modern was designed for 'real world' games, yet it really wasn't. It was designed for 'cinematic action'. Big difference. To use but one example, the film DIE HARD is about as close to 'real world' as LORD OF THE RINGS. Which is to say, both are sheer fantasy.


But again comes the eternal question: since when did 'realism' become fun?

By 'real world genre' I meant anything set in what's nominally the real modern or historical world, without monsters, supernatural, or sf elements. So Die Hard qualifies, as does Cross of Iron and Unforgiven. The directors of these films had to consider 'suspension of disbelief' so that what happens on screen looks (to most people) like it could really happen IRL*. I find 'Cross of Iron' level cinematic realism to be a lot of fun.

*Of course truth is stranger than fiction, and all that. In movies when people get shot they fall over, if they're mooks they're dead or unconscious. IRL some (unarmoured) people have been shot 16 or more times and kept on fighting, which you'll usually not see on TV unless it's a Slasher movie or a docudrama about that FBI ambush that went wrong...

 

[S'mon]

I think it works better in Modern, because of the lower focus on gear. Really, does anyone think a 14th-level fighter NPC is equivalent to a 14th-level fighter PC? It's a lot closer in Modern, however - the NPC gets fewer APs, that's about it.

Do you think a 14th level PC is equal to 2 12th level or 4 10th level NPCs in d20 Modern, though?

 

[Aaron2]

Yeah, I find this is a big problem when I run the low-magic Conan game, where healing is nonmagical. In 1e if you fell to negative hp you were always incapacitated for at least a week, that was much more plausible and could still be used as desired now as a house rule, I'll prob use it for modern games now I think about it, thanks.

I have a Wounds chart that I roll on whenever a character drops below 0 hps. Depending on the attack, the results can range from simple unconsciousness to losing an arm, leg or head. Many of the result cause ability damage, some of it permanent. I have used it for years in my D&D game and it works well. It still keeps the cinematic element (since there is no death spiral) but usually prevents a character from dropping to -9 and being ok 1 round later thanks to a Cure Serious. I created the chart by figuring out the chance of a character stabilizing based on the normal rules. (For example, a character dropped to -1 hit point has a 65% chance of stabilizing on his own, therefore, my chart only gives a 35% chance for any extra damage.)

Finally, every bad result also has a Fort save to remain conscious (but disabled). So, a high level character can continue fighting even after losing an arm (ala Chinese Ghost Story II) or crawl to safety after a monster bites off their leg. Both are DC 30.

Of course, in D&D, losing an arm or leg is no big deal. Neither is permanent ability damage.


Aaron

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Do you think a 14th level PC is equal to 2 12th level or 4 10th level NPCs in d20 Modern, though?

A group of lower-levels is probably better (more APs to hand out, and since damage is sort of front-loaded and doesn't scale very well)...