Underpowered Guns in d20 Modern (rant, long)

[Aaron2]

But, my friend just got the d20 future book, and, while looking at the weapons, I noticed that there is the same penalty for burst fire when using a laser rifle, which shouldn't have any recoil (I may be wrong on this, since I just got a quick look at it). I also notice that the damage of these ultra-tech weapons doesn't increase significantly (only a single die in most cases).
These facts indicate, to me, that the writers have a clear intention of keeping ranged weapon fighters at the same level of melee weapon fighters, which shouldn't be the case in a modern or futuristic setting.

I don't have d20 Future so I can't coment on it. What I do is give weapons a bonus to hit when firing bursts or full automatic. However, every weapon has a seperate range increment for automatic fire to reflect the weapon's recoil. There is a point where your actually less likely to hit because the range penalty is greater than the to hit bonus. This way I can adjust the stats for each weapon so fully automatic pistols (like the old Mauser) are useless at all but the closest ranges but tripod mounted machine guns can blaze away at great distances.

A fully automatic laser wouldn't work so well since there is no shot spread. Each laser "bolt" would hit the exact point the last shot hit.


Aaron

 

[deranged DM]

How can you make a laser weapon fire in automatic fire mode?

The simplest method for "automatic" lasers is a continuous beam - for the "autofire" effect, you would sweep it across the target. The penalty for burst fire would be keeping the weapon trained on a (presumably non-stationary) target.

(The reason you need to keep the beam on target is to achieve significant penetration - shorter "linger time" means that damage may not be sufficient).

 

[Bagpuss]

The most stupid thing about it is not the recoil or the damage of the attack, but the fact a guy in full plate armour can run across open ground covered by a machine gun, with the guy only being able to attack him once before he gets to him. I doubt any of the 100m sprinters would make than run without being riddled with bullets.

 

[Salcor]

Very well put together arguement I have to say. Although, I agree with may people, in that the problem is not in the damage, but in the armor. Perhaps, verse archaic armor firearms would have a armor piercing bonus equal to their damage dice. Since a 50 Cal can penetrate a V8 engine block and keep going it is going to punch through a suit of Full Plate with ease.
I also agree, that some actions should still invoke attacks of opprunity from people with firearms. Running normal invokes an attack of oppurtinity, so maybe we should add the rule that a stationary weapon, (50 cal, M60, prone soldier with an M16) can declare firelanes, and anything in the firing lane invokes an attack of oppurtinty. Or perhaps that could be a new feat

Salcor

 

[DMScott]

I know this system is supposed to be cinematic or whatever

It is indeed, and you picked two very cinematic characters to build your example. In effect, you have Arnold Schwarzenegger as Conan the Barbarian charging Jesse "the Body" Ventura as whatever his guy was called in Predator. You shouldn't expect anything like a realistic result when you set up an action movie scene like that. If you want a slightly more realistic example of modern grunt vs. ancient grunt, make them first level characters and see how it goes. Other options include twiddling the autofire rules or toying with the hit point rules. Both of those are again cinematic in nature - in action movies, the star never gets dropped by a hail of machine gun fire, and if a star does get hit by a bullet it turns out to be "just a flesh wound".

If you really want to turn d20 Modern into d20 Realistic, I suggest digging up Ken Hood's grim 'n' gritty hit point rules, which dialed the HP progression way down, and instituting the Call of Cthulhu massive damage threshold of 10 HP. Only offer saves against autofire for people under cover, and raise the damage on most explosives. Might end up with an interesting game, but make sure you don't set up situations where PCs have to do action-movie heroics like take down people manning machine gun emplacements - heroic in the face of modern weaponry is pretty much synonymous with stupid.

 

[jezter6]

I think the problem in the whole is the HP system. Yes, it represents 'other' damage due to dodging and using energy, but it STILL allows for multiple blasts from a high powered rifle before the enemy goes down.

If you want a more refreshing change, think of switching to a M&M style system where there are no hit points and there's as fair a chance as getting ripped to shreads from that rifle as there is taking no damage at all.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Your example is, first of all, placed at a very inconvenient level for the soldier. A few levels less and all of his chances to deal damage greatly increase. Just one level more and he can make two burst fire attacks against the knight, who already has his second attack but has to get to close range to use it.

Second, a greatsword should do at least as much damage as a machine gun. At the ranges you're describing, a well-trained, armored man with a sword would have a very good chance to survive small arms fire and triumph. A machine gun, now, would likely punch through his armor without missing a beat.

This illustrates a central problem with the AC system in D&D applied to d20 Modern. Medieval armor is designed with deflection foremost in mind, and is pierced primarily by targeting its weak points. Modern armor is designed with diffusion foremost in mind, and is pierced primarily by using a kind of weapon it doesn't protect against.

If you use armor as DR, full plate will ablate a good part of the machine gun bullet. Contrary to popular belief, it should ablate a good part of the bullet, about as much as most modern heavy armor. What it almost certainly won't do is stop the bullet, which is what armor as Defense does. A machine gun doing an average of 20 points to an armored man on burst fire, with the capacity to fire twice, sounds very reasonable to me.

 

[blaskowicz]

How can you make a laser weapon fire in automatic fire mode?

In GURPS, lasers with autofire capability add the damage of all hits before subtracting damage resistance from armor. That (and the fact they inflicted impaling damage) make them the weapon of choice in future settings. Those rules reflect the fact that you can keep the beam trained on a focal point, almost assuring the penetration of all but the heaviest of armors most of the time.
Perhaps the wounding factor would have to be decreased (since you are blowing through a single hole in the target), but I liked the portraying of lasers (and some other energy weapons) as recoiless, and thus, easier to keep steady while firing full automatic.
We are thinking about reducing the penalty for burst fire with energy weapons to -2 in our setting. We are also strongly considering basing the reflex DC for area attacks on the attacker's roll, as suggested by C. Baize.

 

[Pagan priest]

Now, our other character is an unmounted, completely out of place, medieval knight. He is carrying a bastard sword, a heavy steel shield and he is wearing full plate armor. His defense is 26 (+3 class, +9 armor, +3 shield, +1 dexterity).

Umm, my book is down in my car, but doesn't the d20 Modern book say something to the effect that archaic armors only count as half AC, rounded down versus firearms? That would make his defence only 19, and much easier for the soldier to hit with burst fire.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Honestly, I don't have much of a problem with the situation you're describing, but that could be because that's the exact sort of feel I want in my game. One on one, with only a one round distance, I would like the melee character to win. Especially with stats that high.

Trying to keep both forms of combat viable is a delicate balancing act though. I don't think that's the primary part of your concern through, so I'd suggest VP/WP, increasing the amount of damage that guns can do (say by one die), using armor as DR, or restricting available armor.

Also, and this is just a personal thing, while I like the idea of burst fire getting a DC set by the shooter, I also think that defenders should get a bonus for armor (having it act as cover has been the most prevalent suggestion).