D&D 5E Understanding Adult Red Dragon

[DND_Reborn]

Also, depending on the lair, don't forget dragons are great climbers! In a recent session our DM had the dragon climbing the walls of its cave, keeping out of the reach of melee characters (who had to resort to much weaker ranged attacks) and focus everything on spell casters, who it considered more of a threat.

Finally, if you say this is a party of 4 characters, only 7th level... well, they are dead. Even with powerful magical items, the dragon should--literally-toast them.

In the session I mention, we had 5 characters, 9-10th levels, and almost died facing an adult red dragon. And we had powerful items as well (not artifacts, of course, but still).

I agree with @Oofta that a young red dragon would be a better match for a party of 7th level characters unless the party (with those artifacts) is pretty OP.

 

[DND_Reborn]

As an aside, yeah in 5E dragons don't have spells. Our DM has given them to them in some cases, but in others none at all. Of course, he screws with us by changing breath types and such as well LOL!

IIRC, I think he gives spell casting dragons the spells equal to a caster half their CR or so. In this case, the dragon could have the spells of about a 9th level caster if you wanted. This way, even a very young dragon might have a level of spellcaster and a couple spells to surprise the party with.

Just an option.

 

[Oofta]

As an aside, yeah in 5E dragons don't have spells. Our DM has given them to them in some cases, but in others none at all. Of course, he screws with us by changing breath types and such as well LOL!

IIRC, I think he gives spell casting dragons the spells equal to a caster half their CR or so. In this case, the dragon could have the spells of about a 9th level caster if you wanted.

Just an option.

I've used the optional rules myself to add levels of sorcerer to dragons that I want to be a real threat. Because nothing says challenge like an ancient red dragon with several levels of sorcerer and stilled silent spells. No counter for you!

Of course that was for a high level party and solos tend to be underpowered unless you cheat give them advantages.

 

[dave2008]

As an aside, yeah in 5E dragons don't have spells.

That is not correct, there are variant rules in the MM for dragon spellcasting, Here they are:

"A young or older dragon can innately cast a number of spells equal to its Charisma modifier. Each spell can be cast once per day, requiring no material components, and the spell's level can be no higher than 1/3 the dragon's CR (rounded down). The dragon's bonus to hit with spell attacks is equal to its proficiency bonus + its Charisma bonus. The dragon's spell save DC equals 8 + its proficiency bonus + its Charisma modifier."

So the the adult red can cast 5 spells per day. The spells can be up to level 5. Therefore, you could give it up to 5 level 5 spells if you want. With a a spell DC of 19 and a spell attack bonus of +11

 

[dave2008]

So, as my group is coming close to finally encountering Cirothe in EN Publishings "How to slay a dragon" (or rather "Holdenshire Chronicles", I want to make sure I understand how an adult red dragon works in 5e

I would suggest something more like:

* Round 1
-- At ini count 20, ARD uses a lair action (say, magma eruption)
-- At his own ini, ARD uses breathweapon & moves before or after (or both) depending on what the plan is.
-- At the end of the 1st characters turn, ARD uses Tail attack
-- At the end of the 2nd characters turn, ARD uses Wing attack and moves (no more Legendary Actions this round)

* Round 2
-- At ini count 20, ARD uses a lair different action (say, tremor)
-- At his own ini, ARD uses multiattack to strike with Frightful Presence, 1 bite, 2 claws (rolls for recharge) & moves before or after (or both) depending on what the plan is.
-- At the end of the 1st characters turn, ARD uses Tail attack
-- At the end of the 2nd characters turn, ARD uses Wing attack and moves (no more Legendary Actions this round)

* Round 3
-- At ini count 20, ARD uses a different lair action (say, magma eruption again, or volcanic gas)
-- At his own ini, ARD uses multiattack to strick with Frightful Presence, 1 bite, 2 claws (rolls for recharge) & moves before or after (or both) depending on what the plan is.
-- At the end of the 1st characters turn, ARD uses Tail attack
-- At the end of the 2nd characters turn, ARD uses Wing attack and moves (no more Legendary Actions this round)

By Round 4 the dragon should have gotten a breathweapon recharge in and repeat the process from round 1. Of course if you give the spell casting option, it can get more interesting.

 

[dave2008]

PS There is good article on D&D beyond about how to play a red dragon, it even has good suggestions for spells: How to play a red dragon like an evil genius

EDIT: Elemental Bane is a good idea (make it 5th level and hit two PCs with it - FYI that is technically not RAW, but I won't tell if you don't)

 

[DND_Reborn]

That is not correct, there are variant rules in the MM for dragon spellcasting, Here they are:

"A young or older dragon can innately cast a number of spells equal to its Charisma modifier. Each spell can be cast once per day, requiring no material components, and the spell's level can be no higher than 1/3 the dragon's CR (rounded down). The dragon's bonus to hit with spell attacks is equal to its proficiency bonus + its Charisma bonus. The dragon's spell save DC equals 8 + its proficiency bonus + its Charisma modifier."

So the the adult red can cast 5 spells per day. The spells can be up to level 5. Therefore, you could give it up to 5 level 5 spells if you want. With a a spell DC of 19 and a spell attack bonus of +11

It bothers me a lot when people open their posts like this. It encourages me to retaliate, which is never productive.

The option you quote is a variant. Just like multiclassing, re-rolling initiative each round, using speed factors, feats, etc. Pointing out an option or variant that is not a built-in rule does not mean dragons have spells by default. They don't.

You can give them spells of course, following either the variant or something else. For all I know, that might even be what our DM uses (although it seems like his dragons have more spells...) or he uses something else. I'd have to ask him.

 

[cmad1977]

The ‘and moves’ is huge

 

[DND_Reborn]

The ‘and moves’ is huge

Yep, sure it! Good that @dave2008 pointed that out as part of the Wingn Attack legendary action.

 

[dave2008]

It bothers me a lot when people open their posts like this. It encourages me to retaliate, which is never productive.

Good point - sorry about that!

The option you quote is a variant. Just like multiclassing, re-rolling initiative each round, using speed factors, feats, etc. Pointing out an option or variant that is not a built-in rule does not mean dragons have spells by default. They don't.

Not exactly the same thing. There are several monsters with variants in the MM, but they are built-in rules. And I would argue that, IMO, by default the rules are there to use if you want.

Note you said they "don't have them." This, to me, would give the impression that you would need some sort of houserule to give them spells. But you don't, the rules are right there for you to use. IMO, it is more akin to giving an Orc a sword instead of a greataxe. You are just picking the spells (like picking a different weapon). Except even more "default" as it mentions in the monster entry that you can do this (instead of the introduction).