Undispellable spells

[Mordane76]

Actually, if you need a level 86 Wizard and 9 of his level 20 Wizard friends then I think it owuld be easier to beg a deity to just grant you immortality (especially if it is just a timeless body variant...)

I'm sure that this would be a lot easier, save that in our campaign, there are no gods... at least, none that answer. We have religion, but true gods don't really exist.

 

[kreynolds]

I don't think I have a problem with an Immortality spell; I just don't see a way to do it with the rules presented so far for Epic magic (I also don't have the book with me right now to better shape my argument, so all this is off the top of my head).

But you do have a problem with it. I'm just trying to figure out why.

...right now his character is 7th level...

My god! Somebody sure is planning ahead, aren't they?!

The big problem I have is making such a spell unbreakable;

But that's exactly the point. A wall of stone is an unbreakable spell in game terms. Why? Because its no longer a spell. The spell had its effects and is now gone. What's left is permanent, and I don't mean in duration. I mean final. Obviously, if something can be done, then it can be undone. Make a wall of stone? Blow it away with a disintegrate spell. Make an immortal caster? Well, you've got two options; 1) blow him away with a disintegrate spell, or 2) simply undo what was done. Strip him of his immortality with similar magic.

Essentially, even the effects of an epic spell can be countered. Think about it. Xeoble wants to make an epic level Immortality spell, right? Well, if it ever becomes necessary to counter that, for whatever reason, you can always come up with an epic level Mortality spell.

From a balance standpoint, unbreakable spells are "broken."

Just because its an epic spell doesn't mean that its effects can't be cancelled out or reversed. Anways, the easiest solution is to just give it a permanent duration, then all your worries are solved. Still, even if it was an instantaneous Immortality spell (which I don't have a problem allowing), you can still counter it, and if you can still counter it, it certainly isn't "broken".

...there's ALWAYS a way to break the spell...

Exactly, as I said above. So, how's it "broken"? Remember, I never advocated a spell that cannot be countered. I advocated a spell that could not be dispelled.

 

[AuraSeer]

I'm still trying to figure out why wall of ice allows for SR, though...

If part of the wall is broken, and you cross the plane where the ice used to be, you suffer 1d6+CL cold damage. A creature with SR can resist that damage.

 

[Mordane76]

But that's exactly the point. A wall of stone is an unbreakable spell in game terms. Why? Because its no longer a spell. The spell had its effects and is now gone. What's left is permanent, and I don't mean in duration. I mean final. Obviously, if something can be done, then it can be undone. Make a wall of stone? Blow it away with a disintegrate spell. Make an immortal caster? Well, you've got two options; 1) blow him away with a disintegrate spell, or 2) simply undo what was done. Strip him of his immortality with similar magic.

Essentially, even the effects of an epic spell can be countered. Think about it. Xeoble wants to make an epic level Immortality spell, right? Well, if it ever becomes necessary to counter that, for whatever reason, you can always come up with an epic level Mortality spell.

True, I could, and I know that I could just stab his character repeatedly with a knife to kill him as well. This topic came up in House Rules as well -- is there a way to make a spell that can't be undone by any means -- and I felt uncomfortable there. I know that Xeoble's present motivations are a back-story issue: he has a very extended family, and he's looking for a game-mechanic way to keep them in the game. I, as a DM, just wanna make sure that if the spell/device is created, that I know how it works, and that we can agree on a means of ending the spell.

Just because its an epic spell doesn't mean that its effects can't be cancelled out or reversed. Anways, the easiest solution is to just give it a permanent duration, then all your worries are solved. Still, even if it was an instantaneous Immortality spell (which I don't have a problem allowing), you can still counter it, and if you can still counter it, it certainly isn't "broken".

Oh, most definitely -- the spell could be "countered" at the time of casting.

Exactly, as I said above. So, how's it "broken"? Remember, I never advocated a spell that cannot be countered. I advocated a spell that could not be dispelled.

And therein lies the rub -- allowing a spell that can't be dispelled is what I have some trouble with; within the present epic spell rules, the spell we're looking at can't be made with a duration of instantaneous, so hence it has to have a finite or permanent duration. Therefore, it can be dispelled. Now, if special considerations are worked into the spell, then I might allow a special alleviation of normal dispelling, but at a cost of "permanent duration, without dispelling, so long as condition X exists." And that's the middle ground we reached.

 

[kreynolds]

Oh, most definitely -- the spell could be "countered" at the time of casting.

It can also be countered later on, or do you not allow a casting of polymorph other to change an already polymorphed creature into something else? You certainly are not limited to countering this at the time of casting.

...within the present epic spell rules, the spell we're looking at can't be made with a duration of instantaneous, so hence it has to have a finite or permanent duration.

Do you mean the "super-glamer" spell or the Immortality spell? If you mean the immortality spell, its worth pointing out that both the Heal and Life seeds are instantaneous.

And that's the middle ground we reached.

That's reasonable. The big problem here is that Xeoble asked for one spell (immortality) and now the spell has suddenly changed, thus the thread has largely shifted off the original topic (it was never originally about a glamer). It's cool that you worked with him on his glamer though.

 

[Xeoble]

What i thought i had asked for in the first place was an Imortality spell...What Mordane thought i wanted was a super-glamer spell that would take an 86th level caster and 9 other 20th level casters to put into effect...

So far we've decided that the focus idea is ok, that each member of the family is immortal and cloaked in a faint aura of magic from the casting. The immortality comes from enchanting the bones of the 86th level caster's mother. The bones hold the spell until dispelled, etc.

I didn't know that Life and Heal were Duration: Instantaneous, that makes a heck of a lot of difference.

 

[kreynolds]

What i thought i had asked for in the first place was an Imortality spell...

I was pretty sure that's what you were looking for.

What Mordane thought i wanted was a super-glamer spell that would take an 86th level caster and 9 other 20th level casters to put into effect...

Heh. That's an awefully big misunderstanding. I'm curious to know exactly how that came about.

I didn't know that Life and Heal were Duration: Instantaneous, that makes a heck of a lot of difference.

You bet it does.

 

[Mordane76]

The problem with the Heal and Life Epic Seeds is the requirement of a caster capable of casting 9th level DIVINE spells, which only druids can do in the homebrew we're in. The caster he's using isn't a divine caster, else we could have gone that route, and prolly would have at the time, which would have probably avoided the misunderstanding.

I don't really mind the Immortality spell, I just like to have the story element built in. So I'm happy with it...

 

[kreynolds]

The problem with the Heal and Life Epic Seeds is the requirement of a caster capable of casting 9th level DIVINE spells, which only druids can do in the homebrew we're in.

Ah. I see. (insert evil-looking finger fidgeting here) The problem isn't with the Heal and Life seeds. The problem is with the house rules governing them.

Is it reasonable to have an Immortality spell? Absolutely. Is it possible in your homebrew world? Not by the normal means, at all. Is that a failing of the rules of magic? Nope.

Also, I just have to ask this...why is it that your own player isn't even aware of these house rules?

 

[Mordane76]

Also, I just have to ask this...why is it that your own player isn't even aware of these house rules?

I agree -- it's not a failure of the system. I'm pretty sure the player does know how the classes work in our homebrew.

The reason that only druids can do this is because clerics can't cast spells that powerful anymore; there are some odd issues with divine magic in our homebrew.


We also just looked at the orignial sheet we made the spell on, and it used Life, Fortify, and Ward. I need to go back to the ELH, and see why things went the way they did. I'll post later on to make sure I've got all my ducks in a row.

I know part of what the original conversation was, and how I ruled it, but I need to look at why the rest of the spell's things went the way they did. I originally ruled the use of the Life seed required the Knowledge (religion) or (nature) in our homebrew, because of the limitations on divine spellcasters. Overall, I think there was just a misunderstanding of intent on my part at the time of creation that led to this discussion...