Unearthed Arcana Spell Points (high levels)

[Koewn]

I'm assuming this isn't House Rules since it's a published product

Has anyone used UA's spell points at high levels, say, above 15 or so?

Doing the simple math on it, a slot-casting Wizard has about 70 or so points (I don't have the math on me right now, so I'm guess-remembering) above and beyond what the point-caster has, if you'd convert the standard Wizard's slots to points at 20th level.

Clerics are *way* off; over a hundred points at 20th level. I think perhaps clerics are also penalized in their spontaneous Cure spells at the high levels too; the slot-cleric can more selectively decide what he gives up to cast that Heal; the point-cleric drains the 'possibility' of casting a different spell. (Does that make sense?)

This difference starts happening around the 11th or 12th level; and I'm wondering if anyone's actually used them at these high levels, and if the versatility of the point system makes up for the lack of 'spell power per day'. I'm thinking perhaps that in a 'normal' day of adventuring; bedtime comes before most wizards have expended all their spell slots anyway. Of course, that won't matter in the 18th hour of running for our lives, and I'm reduced to being basically a commoner with a stick, on the more exciting days.

I'm about to start a 3rd level Diviner (into Alienist); I've got the option from the DM to switch back to slots if it doesn't pan out compared to the slot-casters in the party, I'm just fishing to see if anyone else has had experience with it.

Thanks!

Koewn

 

[Will]

If this is true (haven't really looked at the numbers), then I, personally, think it's a very very very good thing.

I've generally been dismissive of point systems, because they invariably run into a problem where it's easy to cast lots and lots of high level spells. You know, skip casting your 2nd and 3rd level spells, just cast high level stuff!

That the 'number of slots' is significantly less, to me, suggests that maybe their system is balanced for a change.

I have a friend who uses a spell point system and man, it's a drag to be anything but a caster.

 

[reiella]

Similiar to the justification of the Power Point tables for Psions (ironic sidenote, 20th level psions have about 40 to 60 fewer power points than a wizard or a sorcerer's spell points).

The added ability to apply Metamagic feats 'on the go' (For the prepared spellcasters), and the ability to only have to prepare One Copy of the Spel is part of the reason.

The other reason being that the SPMU has ALOT more versatility and ability to apply their spells (instead of just '6' level 9 spells per day, the Sorcerer can cast a level 9 spell 14 or so times, etc). [More or less, it is an attempt to account for Will's worry ]

 

[Koewn]

If you convert the amount of points a 20th level Wizard (with 23 Int) has back into the slot system, and weight it towards matching the slot-wizard's high-level spells per day, it's interesting.

The point-wizard can match the slot wizard all the way down to fifth level. The point-wizard gets 1 4th level spell, and cannot cast any 1st through 3rd. Not enough points.

It may not be a bad thing if you're an evoker pulling off a 'Last Starfighter' maneuver, but I've always been more of a utility guy (play rogues alot).

I'm not saying there should be more points; not without some severe penalties for getting low on points at least.

If nothing else I'll see in a few months or so whether or not it's worth it. I hope so; I've personally never enjoyed the slot system.

Koewn

 

[Koewn]

Similiar to the justification of the Power Point tables for Psions (ironic sidenote, 20th level psions have about 40 to 60 fewer power points than a wizard or a sorcerer's spell points).

The UA tables are just about the same as the Psion tables.

Threadjacking myself; it would be interesting to see a treatment of a slot-based Psionicist.

The added ability to apply Metamagic feats 'on the go' (For the prepared spellcasters), and the ability to only have to prepare One Copy of the Spel is part of the reason.

Another huge balancer to all that is the fact that you have to pay a point to raise the spell level for damage - a 10d6 fireball costs you 5 points to be a 3rd level spell, PLUS 7 more points to come up to 10th level damage. Evokers are well under control in this system.

Magic Missile even gets unusable - since it's 1 die per 2 levels or whatever, it comes out to 9 points, I think, for a 5d4 magic missile casting. That's a 5th level spell!

That's another concern I have about it's actual viability in play. It may be prudent of me to ask what sort of combat techniques people have for a wizard that is specialized and barred from Evocation.

Either that or keep myself stocked on Wands.

Koewn

 

[Jhulae]

Another huge balancer to all that is the fact that you have to pay a point to raise the spell level for damage - a 10d6 fireball costs you 5 points to be a 3rd level spell, PLUS 7 more points to come up to 10th level damage. Evokers are well under control in this system.

Magic Missile even gets unusable - since it's 1 die per 2 levels or whatever, it comes out to 9 points, I think, for a 5d4 magic missile casting. That's a 5th level spell!

Actually, it's 10 points to cast a 10d6 fireball as a wizard, not 12. 5 points for the 'basic' 5d6 3rd level Fireball, and another 5 to bring it to '10th level caster' power (assuming you're a 10th level wizard). Note that this makes sorcerers a bit more efficient, as a 10th level sorcerer only needs to spend 9 points for a 10d6 fireball. Basically, with any spell level above 1st, a sorcerer spends a point less per scalable damage spell.

 

[Koewn]

Actually, it's 10 points to cast a 10d6 fireball as a wizard, not 12. 5 points for the 'basic' 5d6 3rd level Fireball, and another 5 to bring it to '10th level caster' power (assuming you're a 10th level wizard).

Whoops. I thought basic Fireballs were 3d6. I've never played a caster beyond 3rd level (they've always been one- or two-shot adventures)

The character itself is going to be relatively fun anyway; I'll post stuff here from the game this Saturday to show how it played out. We're only 3rd level; so it's not like I'm going to be really doing anything outlandish, but hey.

The cleric in the party is slot-based so it will be an interesting comparison. At low levels I've got him almost beat on spells-per-day (owing to being a high elf (+2 int) (probably not the right elf name for FR, it is for our game) and Spellcasting Prodigy from FR).

Koewn

 

[Kaodi]

Scaling

Seems to me like damage casters get seriously nerfed in this system. No one is screaming that fireball is too strong in the normal system, so what is the point of screwing over characters that use damage spells? I mean, come on, 5 points for a 5d4+5 magic missile, or a 5d4 burning hands, when for the same price you get a 5d6 fireball or a 5d6 lightning bolt? How is that balanced?

 

[DreamChaser]

Seems to me like damage casters get seriously nerfed in this system. No one is screaming that fireball is too strong in the normal system, so what is the point of screwing over characters that use damage spells? I mean, come on, 5 points for a 5d4+5 magic missile, or a 5d4 burning hands, when for the same price you get a 5d6 fireball or a 5d6 lightning bolt? How is that balanced?

heh...nerfed.

anyway. it is critical in a SP system to do something to curb spellcasters. Either a) remove scaling all together, or b) make them pay for it.

If you think about a 10th level wizard, he has 3 3rd level spell slots. He could choose to prepare 3 fireballs all at 10 dice. He would then be giving up every other 3rd level spell he might want to use. In a SP system, the wizard prepares one fireball, a fly, and a dispel magic which he could then cast any one of at any time using any of his at least 40 SP. If he gets scaling for free, he can cast up to 8 10 die fireballs, but has the freedom at any time to cast a fly or a dispel magic or any of the other 13 spells of 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th levels. If he has to pay for scaling, hes down to 4 of them and he's wiped himself out.

SP = versatility and versatility has to be balanced with something.

One thing I very much like about paying for scaling, is that you can choose to conserve points. When fighting a troup of orcs, you can probably do fine with just a 5 die fireball. If its ogres, maybe adding on a couple extra levels would work better.

DC

 

[Koewn]

Seems to me like damage casters get seriously nerfed in this system.

It's mostly an attempt to stave off 'Holy Hand Grenades' (or whatever clever moniker you can think up) - drop a cleric, let's say, into the middle of combat and he blows all his points on Flame Strikes.

Looking at the math either way:

With no 'point per die' caveat:

My 20th level cleric, with a base 232 points (not including Wisdom), could toss down 15d6 Flame Strikes for 9 points apiece. That's 25 Flame Strikes, or 375d6 in 25 rounds.

He could Quicken some of them. Per round he'd spend 17 points on a Quickened one, then 9 points on a normal one. That's 8 rounds of that for 275d6, with points left over for 2 more normal Flame Strikes.

He could Maximize them. 15 points apiece, that's 90 points of damage per round for 15 rounds, or 1350 damage.

Quicken and Maximize: 17 points for quicken, 15 for a maximized, that's 32 points for 15d6+90 damage, for seven rounds that's 105d6+630 damage.

Phew. This is getting long.

OK, with the UA 'per-die point' cost.

That same cleric tosses 15d6 for 9+10 points apiece. 19 points. That's 180d6 over 12 rounds.

His Quickened 15d6's cost him 27 points, then 19 for the normal - that's only 5 rounds of love, for 150d6.

His Maximized are 25 points; that's 9 rounds for 810 damage.

Quickened and Maximized he can do 27/25, 52 points per round, 4 rounds, for 60d6+360.

And our final trick, the slot based caster. We Quicken our 5th level Flame Strikes to 9th, and Maximize our Flame Strikes to 8th, and memorize all Flame Strikes for our level 5 spells.

Ignoring Wisdom bonuses, our 20th level cleric can cast 4 Quickened Flame Strikes with his 4 Maximized Flame Strikes, then 5 normal Flame Strikes, in 9 rounds. We'll Empower 4 more to 7th level, and just plain old Heighten 4 others to 6th level.

He'll get 120d6+360 damage in 9 rounds, plus 60d6 in the next 4 for the Heighten, and 60d6+(1/2) for the Empowered, so in those 13 rounds we get 240d6+260+(Half of 60d6). Pretending the Empower on 4 is worth 30d6, we'll just say 270d6 to be on the average.

And he's still got 1st-4th level spells left, unlike our point caster who's more or less spent depending on the circumstance.

I'm absolutely positive I've done math wrong here, but I've been coming back and writing as work permits, so please don't hurt me I leave the opinion on this as an exercise for the reader.

Koewn