D&D 5E Unfortunate Wording

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Nobody does. You use the Save DC and Attack Mod from the chart provided.

Thank you, Agamon.

I was looking at scrolls in Pathfinder over the weekend and didn't look at the 5E Basic Rules regarding spells.

 

[charlesearth]

That's assuming "magical words" means magic is it's own language and/or character set. In fiction, magic words (and casting spells) has sometimes just been about getting the right (seemingly ordinary)words into the right order.

Yes, but if that were the case, then there would be a prerequisite for spellcasters to be proficient with the language in which magic is written (common or whatever).

As for the mystical cipher... classic ciphers didn't use different character sets, just re-arranging or transposing letters of existing characters. And clever people could definitely break those ciphers.

I do understand where you're coming from though.

True, but that's a relatively long process even in the most simple cases, and here the scroll is used in one action. I would say that having deciphered the magical code is equivalent to be proficient in the Arcana skill, to a certain degree. I think the problem here comes from the perception that Arcana and other knowledge skills should require training to be used at all, that's my case, but I know it's no a requirement anymore in the 5e.

Also, Welcome to EN World!

Thanks!

 

[Stormonu]

It should be noted that back in 1E (and I think 2E) that fighters could read and use protection scrolls (1E DMG, p128, first sentence). Sadly, those type of scrolls disappeared in 3E.

Personally, I'd allow a non-caster to use a scroll if they are trained/proficient in Arcana, otherwise it would be a mystery to them. Remember that the Eldritch Knight is a path for the fighter, and they ought to be able to use scrolls.

 

[charlesearth]

Thus the Arcana check to decipher it. That isn't luck or cleverness, it's knowledge of the arcane. Wizards don't have "Arcane" under languages known.

Yes, but the fighter doesn't have it, while all wizards do. I was talking of the spirit of the rules and the general lore of D&D settings, taking also into account past editions (2e and 3e). With the current wording anyone can try the Arcane check, there are no trained only skills anymore.
Anyway the wording was different in the playtest, and we only have a preview now.

 

[Minigiant]

People forget 5e isn't 3e or 4e. Biggest problem in 5e ATM.

Casters can't cheaply make scrolls anymore.

So any scrolls a party has will 90% be treasure or expensive if level level or weak if below level.

Having a fighter attempt to cast a Meteor Storm with a spell scroll that costs as much as a castle....
better be an emergency.

If they need it that bad, let them try.

 

[transtemporal]

Second, why is this ridiculous? Why can't a clever fighter read a spell from a scroll?

Yeah! Right on! Fighters are people (wizards) too!

 

[Falling Icicle]

Upon reflection, I don't think the problem with a permissive reading would be Fighters using scrolls, but Wizards casting Cleric / Druid / etc. spells with a very high probability of success. It would further expand their already broad repertoire.

I doubt wizards will be able to create scrolls that have cleric, druid, etc. spells on them. That means that the only way the wizard will be getting them is if the DM allows it. I don't see any real potential for abuse here.

Are you guys serious? Look at the Starter set rules, then look at the higher level "use magic device" ability of the Thief Archetype, which would be seriously lessened. What other rule is so dramatically different between the starter set rules and the basic rules? I'm mystified that so many people read it this way.

Why is it lessened? The thief can use any scroll without having to roll. No one else can do that.

 

[rastus_burne]

It should be noted that back in 1E (and I think 2E) that fighters could read and use protection scrolls (1E DMG, p128, first sentence). Sadly, those type of scrolls disappeared in 3E.

Wow, I had never noticed that. It says they can read the spell, and based on the context in which it is written, it would appear that by read it means cast. Thanks for pointing that out. Presumably that's a carry over from OD&D?

 

[erf_beto]

You know what this change also brings?
It opens up the possibility of spells that aren't on ANY class list - the earth shattering, plane wreaking, god slaying stuff of epic awesomeness... and instead of relying on DM fiat, there are actual rules to use them now! And no munchkin wizard can copy it into his spellbook.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

I'm loving those rules. They serve a variety of classic fantasy tropes related to how mundane people deal with arcane knowledge. It's very cool that your evil fighter villain can try to cast a powerful spell and become a vampire without having to multiclass or find a wizard minion first.