Unified Progression - why level/2?

[Sadrik]

"+ 1/2 level" instead of "+ level" works better with D&D because of magic items for one. In SWSE "+ level" works because magic items don't exist to inflate the numbers.

So are you saying get rid of '+' items and we are at approximately same spot?

 

[ruleslawyer]

Why go for level/2 when level would be easier and give a better sense of improvement on gaining an odd level.

This is probably so obvious that there's no point mentioning it, but I think it also has to do with the fact that the game is played using a d20 and not a d40. The moment that the bonus spread exceeds 10 on a d20, the roll starts becoming rather pointless compared with the modifiers; I'm guessing that the designers wanted to make sure that "the roll matters" at all levels.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

This is only semi-related, but do you guys think attribute checks will (a) exist and (b) get the level/2 bonus?

I'm thinking "yes" because of the way the Pit Fiend's attributes and bonuses are listed. Which I'm not sure I like. Seems like the same problem I mentioned earlier, but even more blatant: Raistlin the level 10 wizard with 8 Strength will (on average) beat Joe the village blacksmith at arm-wrestling, despite the fact that Raistlin STILL has 8 strength on his character sheet.

 

[A'koss]

This is only semi-related, but do you guys think attribute checks will (a) exist and (b) get the level/2 bonus?

I'm thinking "yes" because of the way the Pit Fiend's attributes and bonuses are listed. Which I'm not sure I like. Seems like the same problem I mentioned earlier, but even more blatant: Raistlin the level 10 wizard with 8 Strength will (on average) beat Joe the village blacksmith at arm-wrestling, despite the fact that Raistlin STILL has 8 strength on his character sheet.

I see no reason why an ability check won't remain an ability check - no level adj. The bonuses by the Pit Fiend's stats most likely just apply to skills based on that stat. That way it doesn't need to have every skill listed out in it's stat block. If you need to know it's climb check - just check the mod by Str. Diplomacy? Check the mod by Cha.

 

[Khuxan]

This is probably so obvious that there's no point mentioning it, but I think it also has to do with the fact that the game is played using a d20 and not a d40. The moment that the bonus spread exceeds 10 on a d20, the roll starts becoming rather pointless compared with the modifiers; I'm guessing that the designers wanted to make sure that "the roll matters" at all levels.

As long as the bonus remains proportional to the difficulty, it can be +1,000 and the die roll will still matter. (e.g. d20 +1 vs. DC 11 compared to d20 +1,000 vs. DC 1,001 - the die roll still matters just as much).

 

[ruleslawyer]

Yes, but double the numbers suggests the potential for double the spread depending on how bonuses are allocated. Also, it's a question of how quickly characters of different levels begin to diverge in ability. If bonuses scale too quickly, then lower-level monsters become a predictable pushover at a rapid rate.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

In SW: Saga you use whichever calss bonus is best, and ignore the other.

Actually, from what I've been able to determine, that isn't the case. The character uses the current class bonus (i.e., the one the latest level was taken in), and not the best of the two.

I reverse-engineered the stats in the back for Luke, Han, and other movie characters. IIRC, Luke only had a +2 to his Defenses across the board. If he "kept the best and ignored the rest," then he would've had a +4 in one of the stats (due to the levels in Ace Pilot) instead of just the +2 for Jedi Knight (I think Reflex, but I can't recall which for certain).

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Actually, from what I've been able to determine, that isn't the case. The character uses the current class bonus (i.e., the one the latest level was taken in), and not the best of the two.

I reverse-engineered the stats in the back for Luke, Han, and other movie characters. IIRC, Luke only had a +2 to his Defenses across the board. If he "kept the best and ignored the rest," then he would've had a +4 in one of the stats (due to the levels in Ace Pilot) instead of just the +2 for Jedi Knight (I think Reflex, but I can't recall which for certain).

However that SWSE rule worked specifically, I can't imagine they'd keep it for D&D, since it seems to blatantly favor multiclassing over single-classing.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Actually, from what I've been able to determine, that isn't the case. The character uses the current class bonus (i.e., the one the latest level was taken in), and not the best of the two.

I reverse-engineered the stats in the back for Luke, Han, and other movie characters. IIRC, Luke only had a +2 to his Defenses across the board. If he "kept the best and ignored the rest," then he would've had a +4 in one of the stats (due to the levels in Ace Pilot) instead of just the +2 for Jedi Knight (I think Reflex, but I can't recall which for certain).

That could be a problem with the characters as written. Harried writers desperately trying to crunch all the class numbers are notoriously disadvantaged vs. ambitious PCs carefully checking all of the angles.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

However that SWSE rule worked specifically, I can't imagine they'd keep it for D&D, since it seems to blatantly favor multiclassing over single-classing.

Neither can I. Then again, SWSE still has Prestige Classes, as well as a 20-level limit, so I'm not sure if this will manifest in 4e as it has in SWSE. Maybe a kicker to defenses at X level or when pursuing a particular Paragon path, but not really anything on the scale of SWSE due to the lack of PrCs and the 30-level stretch.

That could be a problem with the characters as written. Harried writers desperately trying to crunch all the class numbers are notoriously disadvantaged vs. ambitious PCs carefully checking all of the angles.

I'm not so sure about this. If this were the case, it'd been addressed in the SWSE errata (and, AFAIK, it hasn't yet). I'd also say that "keep the best, ignore the rest" really shifts the favor to multiclassing (esp. into 1 or more Prestige Classes), making it rough for single-classed characters. IMO, using the "current class" modifiers is a bit more balanced since you take the good & bad alongside each other (and, since class level provides a bonus, this works out OK).

If you don't have good numbers in perception and initiative, you're easily ambushed and killed. Training and skill focus and a reasonable attribute modifier put a character at roughly +12. Without training or focus, that character would be at a +2.

Now imagine starting each combat rolling at +2 vs someone rolling at +12. Basically, you have a very high chance of be shot at multiple times while flat-footed. That potentially means you are starting every single combat with damage by the time you get to act for the first time. That isn't a good place to be.

On the flip side, you can easily build a small droid with a level of scoundrel and essentially wander around with a +24 bonus to stealth rolls... at first level. The odds of being spotted and attacked before you act are very, very small.

I think it's a matter of when you can invest in these skills, though. It may not be feasible to begin with a character who has training in both Perception and Initiative (the Jedi with its 2 trained skills really limits the choice to Use the Force and 1 other skill, barring Int and species mods). A character can always burn a feat to get Trained in another skill later on (and then Focused in that skill even later), but the key thing is that the character only gets so many feats within the 20-level span, and some of the feat chains are rather extensive, IIRC (esp. getting feats that mesh well with particular talent trees).