Unified Progression - why level/2?

Stalker0 · Dec 2, 2007

If it works like Saga, then it will basically be that level bonuses are the same for everyone, with a class bonus bumping up some of your saves and perhaps your attack rolls. Then of course you can likely add in feats and talents to further differentiate.

bgaesop · Dec 2, 2007

Aage said:
It'd probably look something like this:

BAB, AC, Fort, Ref, Will, (MAB*): ½ character level + relevant ability modifier + class bonus

*Not sure about this one, but it makes sense to have a special attack bonus for magic.

Class bonus will then be the only difference between a fighter and a wizard, and the gap will not become greater nor smaller over time. My guess is that the best class bonuses are +5 and the worst +0, with the others inbetween.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, let's say a fighter gets a +5 BAB and a wizard gets a +0. At level one the wizard would have +1 and the fighter would have +6, while at level 20 the wizard would have +10 and the fighter would have +15? Is that correct or am I way off?

I suppose that makes sense, and if each class has its own pluses to each of the categories that doesn't seem too far off from 3.x. It really makes 1st level characters quite powerful, though, which is something I like. Hooray for support for low level adventurers!

Aage · Dec 2, 2007

bgaesop said:
So if I'm understanding you correctly, let's say a fighter gets a +5 BAB and a wizard gets a +0. At level one the wizard would have +1 and the fighter would have +6, while at level 20 the wizard would have +10 and the fighter would have +15? Is that correct or am I way off?

I suppose that makes sense, and if each class has its own pluses to each of the categories that doesn't seem too far off from 3.x. It really makes 1st level characters quite powerful, though, which is something I like. Hooray for support for low level adventurers!

Exactly like that. (Although I'd guess you round down, so it would be +0 (wiz) and +5 (ftr) at 1st level).

ZombieRoboNinja · Dec 2, 2007

I am kind of worried about skills.

I guess at paragon and epic levels I can't complain, but I'd think that at heroic levels, at least, it should be possible to make a character who is just bad at some things. Not "bad compared to other stuff of the same level" but just not that good, flat-out. My level 10 "clumsy barbarian" shouldn't be a better diplomat that most courtiers (level 1-2 aristocrats).

Mustrum_Ridcully · Dec 2, 2007

ZombieRoboNinja said:
I am kind of worried about skills.

I guess at paragon and epic levels I can't complain, but I'd think that at heroic levels, at least, it should be possible to make a character who is just bad at some things. Not "bad compared to other stuff of the same level" but just not that good, flat-out. My level 10 "clumsy barbarian" shouldn't be a better diplomat that most courtiers (level 1-2 aristocrats).

That's assuming that a real courtier is "just" a level 1-2 aristocrat in D&D 4 (or even in 3rd edition).
In Star Wars Saga, a really focused character could get a +10 bonus from feats/training in a skill, and would probably also have an ability bonus. A clumsy 10th level Barbarian in this scenario would have a +5 bonus (from level), and probably an ability penalty. It's also possible that the courtier in question has a reroll ability for the skill (I don't know if this concept will be found in D&D 4,though).

A 10th level Barbarian is probably no longer that clumsy anyway. Assuming a normal campaign, he will have been part of a few negotiations and picked up a few tricks. He will lack some eloquence and finesse, but he will probably have a good enough grasp of how people tick to try something.

Emirikol · Dec 2, 2007

So this means we won't have leather armor as a +4 AC bonus? Hmm. Darn. I love math so much

jh

Remathilis · Dec 2, 2007

[speculation]
All dice rolls are now dynamic (1d20) attack vs. a static defense.

An "attack" is 1d20 + 1/2 char level + relevant ability mod + Class Bonus + Misc Bonuses
A "defense" is 10 + 1/2 char level + relevant ability mod + Class Bonus + Misc Bonuses

"attacks" includes melee attacks, ranged attacks, skill checks, spellcasting, talents (smite), and other d20 rolls (initiative, for example)

"defenses" include AC, Fort, Reflex, and Will.

So (making up some class bonuses) a 1st level fighter (+5 class) attacks a first level wizard (+2 class)

The fighter rolls 1d20, adds 1/2 level (0 or 1, depending on rounding, we'll go with 0) his class bonus (+5) and his str (+3, 16 str). His roll is 12, so his total is 18.

The wizard has 10 + 1/2 level (0), class (+2) and dex (+2, 14 dex) for a total of 14. He's hit.

Now, the wizard acts and casts sleep on the fighter.

The wizard rolls 1d20, adds his spellcasting class mod (+5) +1/2 level (0) and his int mod (for being a wizard, 16 int, +3 mod). His roll is 8, so his total is 16.

The fighter defends with his will save, 10 + 1/2 level (0) + class mod (0) + wis mod (1, 12 wis) +2 for Iron Will (his feat). for a total of 13. Not good enough, he's napping now.

Whats great is that this exact round will play out exactly the same (EERU) with both characters being at level 20. Simply replace the +0 Class level bonus for (+10). However, when fighting foes of unequal strength, higher level PCs have a strong advantage of lower level foes, and vice versa. So level really does become a large factor in how strong a PC is. (of course; talents, feats, and magical items can further skew the math in favor of one person or another, but the baseline is a lot more constant that 3x)

Atlatl Jones · Dec 2, 2007

Remathilis said:
[speculation]
All dice rolls are now dynamic (1d20) attack vs. a static defense.

An "attack" is 1d20 + 1/2 char level + relevant ability mod + Class Bonus + Misc Bonuses
A "defense" is 10 + 1/2 char level + relevant ability mod + Class Bonus + Misc Bonuses

"attacks" includes melee attacks, ranged attacks, skill checks, spellcasting, talents (smite), and other d20 rolls (initiative, for example)

That does make a lot of sense. I hope that all rolls/bonuses are now on the same "scale", so it becomes reasonable and balanced to make skill rolls vs. will/reflex defense, and things like that.

The one mystery is how AC bonuses from armor will work. I suspect it'll work a lot like it does in SWSE, with characters taking the armor bonus or their level bonus, whichever is higher, with a talent allowing some to add 1/2 their armor bonus to their class bonus. I also wouldn't be surprised if certain classes (like rogues) gain misc. bonuses to AC when not wearing armor, and wizards gain a misc. armor bonus to AC from an always-on mage-armor-like effect.

Voss · Dec 2, 2007

ZombieRoboNinja said:
I am kind of worried about skills.

I guess at paragon and epic levels I can't complain, but I'd think that at heroic levels, at least, it should be possible to make a character who is just bad at some things. Not "bad compared to other stuff of the same level" but just not that good, flat-out. My level 10 "clumsy barbarian" shouldn't be a better diplomat that most courtiers (level 1-2 aristocrats).

They are, really. If its like saga and you've got the trained/untrained distinction, at lower levels you can try things (but some uses are trained only), but you're essentially throwing a random d20 and expecting to fail 75% of the time for basic tasks. That slowly goes down to 25% as you approach 20th level. Ability bonuses change these numbers slightly, but not much.

As for clumsy barbarian vs. courtier... again, if its like saga, no worries. In fact, you're barbarian will barely be on the same field as the courtier even at 20th level.
10th level barbarian- diplomacy (untrained) 1/2 level + cha bonus = 5 + 0(probably) = 5
1st level courtier. diplomacy (trained) + skill focus diplomacy + cha bonus (2?) =5+5+2= 12
Even if he doesn't have skill focus, he still has an edge on you, at first level. Thats a pretty big gap to bridge. And if he is actually 10th level as well, the number is 18 or 19. Courtier wins, almost all the time.

This actually becomes a problem in Saga with skills like initiative and stealth vs. perception. Training and skill focus win to the point that not training these skills is a character optimization problem.