Unintended(?) Consequence of No More X-Mas Tree?

[Lord Sessadore]

With regards to the previous discussion about "sucks to be you" stuck in bed healing if the other party members decide to go out and do ... whatever other things they want, and that leading the the previously-injured PC not taking as much risks in later combats so he wouldn't get injured - IMO, that is definitely not metagaming. Think about it.

You took some big cuts and bruises so your buddies wouldn't have to, for whatever reason. Now, you're stuck in bed getting better, but the buddies that you got hammered for don't stick around to help you get better - they go out and party, or go find some more loot, or whatever. Would that not make you the least bit resentful? (I'm speaking from the character's point of view, not the player's.) The least they could do is check on you often, and be close by for when you're finally able to get out of bed, then celebrate with you, right? Maybe hold off on their own celebrations until you're well enough to take part? If they don't show appreciation for your sacrifice, why sacrifice for them again? (and again, and again, and again...) As far as I can see, staying safer in combat after that isn't metagaming - it's the character looking out for himself, because he doesn't get shown appreciation for putting the safety of his buddies in front of his own safety. That would be roleplaying, would it not?


LS

 

[Lord Sessadore]

But when people want to play Dungeons and Dragons they generally assume they'll be fighting Dragons and the such.
Most fantasy literature doesn't assume such a magic-rich enviroment, and nonetheless the characters face significant, scary challenges and come out alive.
Take for example U.K. LeGuin's Earthsea: Ged kills some dragons alone, and without magic items ( even though he is a wizard himself);
In LotR, the Fellowship faces a Troll and a dozen Orcs in Moria and they come out alive;
Conan kills all sorts of mid level magic users (most have save or die effects at their disposal);
heck, in real world's legends, Sigfried killed Fafner with only his father's magic sword,
St.George killed dragons, and he wasn't decked out in magic items.
Perseus killed a Medusa with just a few magic items.

If one thinks about a few of those examples, you can reason your way through them.
For example, in the LotR battle you mention, you should remember that the Troll is more akin to a D&D ogre than a D&D troll (I don't recall Tolkien ever saying his trolls regenerated, they were just big and strong). Four of the Fellowship were competent fighter-types, and the hobbits, while they didn't contribute much, were able to take down a few orcs (which, I might add, seem more similar to D&D goblins than D&D orcs, making it a much easier fight). Gandalf.. well, Gandalf was probably powerful enough he could have marched through Moria solo and slaughtered everything he encountered, but he hid most of his power almost all the time, so he doesn't really count. Recall that he defeated the Balrog by himself, when he told everyone else to run because it would have killed them easily.

Perseus beheaded Medusa in her sleep, then put on the hat of invisibility and winged boots and flew away from Medusa's two sisters - there was no way he could stand up to them in a fight, in other words.

I don't know much about Sigfried (ie how good of a warrior he was), but if he wasn't a very good warrior and managed to defeat Fafner with the help of a magic sword, it probably wasn't just a +1 sword; probably more like a +5 keen sword (something that would give a novice warrior a chance to defeat a tough veteran). If Sigfried wasn't a novice compared to Fafner, I fail to see how a magic sword really enters the equation. In real-world legends, magic is often a table-turner, so it makes sense that it would be mechanically significant.

I will concede that 3.x doesn't work for modeling your other examples (the ones that don't involve magic items). That is where 3e falls apart in this regard. There's not much you can do with 3.x to make it possible for, say, a fighter of any level, without magic items, to be able to go toe-to-toe with something like an Ancient dragon. St. George, however, could possibly be said to have divine protection/aid, making him harder to hurt and deal more damage than the average person of his skill (similar idea to a paladin, but actually putting him above his level, ie not balanced with other classes).

Just my observations and opinions. Of course, others may have differing opinions of how those could be modeled in D&D, and I'm no more qualified than anyone else to make such judgments.

Sorry for the wordiness of that there... I get carried away sometimes. Kudos to you if you suffered through the whole thing, haha.

LS

 

[Hussar]

The big disconnect between magic in the game and magic in fiction is purpose. Magic in fiction is a pure plot device. It is there so the hero can do X which no one else could possible do without magic. Need to escape from the Gorgons? Here's a magic hat that makes you invisible.

What you never, ever see in fiction is a hero who receives a magic doohickey and then just stows it in his backpack. That doohickey will ALWAYS be the thing that saves the day. It's IMPORTANT.

Magic in the game though is just a tool. It's a reward for play and a way to improve the character without actually gaining levels. It's also a method to allow a character to do stuff that's outside his class as well. A fighter with Wings of Flying can take on more roles that are well outside the traditional fighter role, for example.

However, sometimes magic items are never used. Or, they are used at the wrong time and you don't have them when you really need them. They don't function as a plot device since the DM has no control (usually) as to when they can be used.

Comparisons between games and fiction really break down.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Very well put, Hussar. I think that hits the nail pretty much on the head. Of course, as I think your point was, the fact that you can't compare games and fiction doesn't justify or unjustify the Christmas tree effect. Personally I'd like to see a little less Christmas-tree-y characters in 4e, or at least have the classes balanced so that burning the tree in your game doesn't horribly unbalance them compared to each other.

Also, while magic in games is quite often just a tool and not a plot device, there are a few exceptions. Namedly: artifacts. That's pretty much what they're for, aren't they? They are priceless, extremely powerful. If you find one, the DM intends for it to become a big part of the story of the campaign.

LS

 

[Gloombunny]

Also, while magic in games is quite often just a tool and not a plot device, there are a few exceptions. Namedly: artifacts. That's pretty much what they're for, aren't they? They are priceless, extremely powerful. If you find one, the DM intends for it to become a big part of the story of the campaign.

What Hussar is saying applies to magic items of any power level, though, not just the super-mega-awesome ones.

Though I'm a little skeptical of his point. In fiction you rarely see a character acquiring a magic item and then not having it be important to the plot, sure. But that's true of non-magical things in fiction too. Most writers don't bother mentioning things that aren't relevant to the story in some way. It's more true of magic things only because it's more true of unusual things and magic is usually intended to seem unusual.

 

[Hussar]

What Hussar is saying applies to magic items of any power level, though, not just the super-mega-awesome ones.

Though I'm a little skeptical of his point. In fiction you rarely see a character acquiring a magic item and then not having it be important to the plot, sure. But that's true of non-magical things in fiction too. Most writers don't bother mentioning things that aren't relevant to the story in some way. It's more true of magic things only because it's more true of unusual things and magic is usually intended to seem unusual.

In most fiction, our protagonist is wearing clothes. It might not be mentioned, but, it's certainly inferred. It's pretty rare for fiction to mention going to the bathroom as well, but, again, it's understood to be "off camera". When something like clothing is mentioned, it rarely has anything to do with plot and usually is done to describe setting.

For example, if my protagonist is wearing robes and has a pointy hat, that's pretty much screaming wizard. Has nothing to do with the plot. The bad guy wears a black hat, the good guy wears a white one. Doesn't change the plot at all, just acts as nice markers for the reader.

But magic is different. You will never see a fiction story where a magic item is called out that that magic item then plays no crucial role in the plot. Except for background items in some books like Harry Potter where the setting is being defined by magical doodads, the items that are specifically called out and then connected with a character become plot points.

While I'm sure that people will come up with exceptions to what I'm saying, that just helps my point. They are the exceptions because the norm for magic in fiction is to act as a plot point.

 

[PeterWeller]

I think his point was writers only point out stuff that is going to develop the narrative. What you're saying about magic items can be applied to guns, laptops, toothbrushes or anything. What you are describing with your wizard example is characterization via props, an exceedingly common tool in fiction. Quentin Compson's pocket watch and Anton Chigur's compressed air gun are two examples that spring to mind immediately. Magic items aren't a special case; they're just much more obvious because by being labeled "magic," they are connotatively labeled, "important."

 

[Raven Crowking]

I think this is most important. RC's system works fine for a REH style world where dragons are just dinosaurs and demons are (apparently) just mildly vicious spirits (though I suspect that Conan D20 works even better), but the minute you want to start emulating a whole host of other "low magic" settings, your characters are boned. The system doesn't support fighting high end monsters without a load of magic gear (actually it doesn't support fighting many mid level monsters without magic stuff either), which means Bard and Saint George would have been nothing more than small piles of ash, unless their DM rewrote the stat blocks for their foes.

Most pictures of St. George show the dragon as a pretty small creature; still do-able using my system.

In the case of The Hobbit, Bard fired the final shot, but other archers had been whittling down the dragon's hit points (and turning into small piles of ash) long before that. Remember that hit points don't always mean damage. (D&D doesn't do the whole "vulnerable spot" thing very well, though.) Of course, the Black Arrow in [i[The Hobbit[/i] may well have been an arrow of slaying.

RC

 

[PeterWeller]

Most pictures of St. George show the dragon as a pretty small creature; still do-able using my system.

Medieval era depictions with little regard for scale, perspective or proportion. Are your castles only 5 or 6 feet tall? Can they only fit an archer or three on their towers?

In the case of The Hobbit, Bard fired the final shot, but other archers had been whittling down the dragon's hit points (and turning into small piles of ash) long before that. Remember that hit points don't always mean damage. (D&D doesn't do the whole "vulnerable spot" thing very well, though.) Of course, the Black Arrow in [i[The Hobbit[/i] may well have been an arrow of slaying.

RC

DR means those other archers wouldn't be able to inflict any damage. You're right, though, the black arrow would probably be best depicted as a slaying arrow.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Medieval era depictions with little regard for scale, perspective or proportion. Are your castles only 5 or 6 feet tall? Can they only fit an archer or three on their towers?

Perhaps not....but they do depict the dragon trampled by St. George's horse.

DR means those other archers wouldn't be able to inflict any damage. You're right, though, the black arrow would probably be best depicted as a slaying arrow.

Depends upon how Smaug is statted, and how many criticals there are.

RC