D&D 5E Unique psionic tricks

[Saeviomagy]

As an aside, I think target restrictions are actually pretty huge, worth approximately three spell levels. Compare Hold Person (2nd level, scales) to Hold Monster (5th level, doesn't scale), or Dominate Person (5th level) to Dominate Monster (8th level, longer duration). You can paralyze 4 humanoids for the same 5th level spell slot as one crocodile.

I agree that Broken Will is also different, and the one-round duration plus immunity-on-save is important, but overall I think it's clear that psionics really is better at mind-control from a pure power perspective. A wizard trying to get an adult red dragon to claw itself to death has to spend an 8th level spell slot and overcome a Wisdom +7 saving throw, and the dragon gets another saving throw each time it takes damage, so in order to get three successful attacks in for 50-ish damage, he has to beat THREE saves at +7 after exhausting legendary resistance. It could happen but it's not likely, and it's expensive. A 5th level telepath on the other hand just has to spend 5 PP and beat one Int save at +3. (Interestingly the telepath doesn't control the dragon's bonus action or reaction, but vanilla dragons have no real use for their bonus action so it doesn't much matter. My dragons are all sorcerers with Quicken Metamagic so it would matter a lot at my table.) A party of mid-level Telepaths, Diviners, and/or Wild Sorcs would have a very good chance of getting a dragon to claw its own self to death via Broken Will, which would never ever happen via Dominate Monster.

I would question why, when you have dominated the dragon for the next hour, you are doing something as pedestrian as trying to make it claw itself to death, when doing so might cause it to break free in 18 seconds. To me it feels like the psionicist is using his raw will to smash the target over the head, but the wizard has spent a lot longer to learn the finesse to get more than that.

Check out the 2nd edition Complete Psionics Handbook for details. That was the book that first introduced the psionicist as a full-fledged class to AD&D.

I'm quite familiar with it. Psionics was all about cheezing your power rolls so you could pull off the equivalent of high level spells well before you should have had that power, and hoping that you never met a foe that actually used the psionic combat rules.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I would question why, when you have dominated the dragon for the next hour, you are doing something as pedestrian as trying to make it claw itself to death, when doing so might cause it to break free in 18 seconds. To me it feels like the psionicist is using his raw will to smash the target over the head, but the wizard has spent a lot longer to learn the finesse to get more than that.

Touche, sir.

Last session session my players managed to knock a major bad guy out with drow sleep poison. Instead of hitting him while unconscious for an auto-crit, the party hauled the poor Rakshasa over to the river and drowned him. He never got to wake up and fight back. You could do the same thing to the dragon, if he has no allies to damage him.

 

[steeldragons]

Here you go. I don't know if any of them are "unique" psionic tricks...they all struck me as fairly common/typical things a psychic could/would be able to do.

But, instead of going through it all and writing stuff out again, here it is. Maybe there's something in here you can use.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?460760-Nother-Psionics-PC-homebrew-for-5e

 

[dream66_]

I don't want psionics to have unique tricks that cannot be done with magic because I don't want to wall off concepts in order to make a less-used portion of the game 'special'.

The things that make psionics special should be the mechanics that a psion uses and flavour behind their powers. Saying "only psionicists can do dreamscape stuff" (for instance) makes it harder to add dreamscape things to a campaign world that doesn't feature psionics.

But the big problem here is, then why do we have things that Divine can do but not Arcane (healing).

I like running games without any gods and no divine, I like running campaign settings without magic of any kind, the game should be able to support all these different options.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

But the big problem here is, then why do we have things that Divine can do but not Arcane (healing).

If bards are arcane, then clearly arcane magic can do healing, both with their native spell list and with Magical Secrets. Even if you think bards are something separate and different, arcane magic can still do healing, it's just different and more expensive: Vampiric Touch on a regenerating source (like a psionicist!), or Clone you into a new, younger, undamaged body, or Wish to Regenerate.

 

[fuindordm]

I guess "Unique" was too strong a word in the thread title. Maybe you have ideas along the lines of "What psionic powers should be objectively better than similar spells at an equivalent level?"

For example, if wizards have Detect Thoughts at 3rd level then should mystics have a power that detects surface thoughts and also has a chance to find out something from the NPC's knowledge at 3rd level?

If wizards have Telekinesis at 9th level then should mystics gain it earlier, and by 9th level have a higher equivalent strength with their TK?

Really the point of this thread was to try to brainstorm specific powers that would make psionic characters distinctive from spellcasters, even if they're not entirely unique.

And yes, [MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION], I read your class and liked where it was going. I think you anticipated WotC on the structure of the powers.

 

[jgsugden]

I think we're looking at this wrong. 5E doesn't like to give powers earlier to different classes unless you're talking about the difference between a class focused on magic (wizard) and a dabbler (Eldritch Knight). Psions shouldn't get access to powers that duplicate spells at levels earlier than when a wizard would get those powers, even if they are more psionic in feel.

Instead, psions should get powers that do not feel like spells. You shouldn't be saying, "They get detect thoughts, but it ..." You should be saying, "They have a mind reading power that is different than Detect Thoughts and feels more like a psychic ability than a spell."

I'd rather have seen psionics have a lot fewer powers than wizards have spells, but have those powers evolve as the psion gains powers to each be more versatile. Give them mind whip at 1st level, an at-will attack requiring no PPs that deals d6 damage. Then, list 30 augmentations for it that each have a PP cost. Add Int to the damage? 3 PP. Upgrade to d10? 1 PP. Add charm Until End of Your Next Turn? 1 PP. Add another die of damage? 3 PP. Stun until end of your next turn? 9 PP. There might be as few as 12 powers for psions covering all the traditional psionic rolls... and psions would gain very few of them. This would give them versatility within a spectrum, but giving them few spectrums in which to play would give them great limitations as well.

 

[fuindordm]

Hm, I wasn't suggesting that they get TK equivalent to a 5th-level spell earlier than a Wizard; I was suggesting that they get TK starting from an earlier level, and implying (sorry for the confusion) that it would be weaker when first acquired, but that at equivalent levels the psi version should be better than the wizard version.

Anyway, you're right that the mystic powers will work differently from spells and differ in many details. But since there is that pesky psi/magic spell equivalency in the UA article, it made me think of dealing with the spell equivalents.

Let's say that a TK discipline exists for the Mystic and subclasses that gives you Mage Hand (always on). For 3pp you can Levitate. For 5pp you can have real telekinesis, but with a lower weight limit than the spell. For 7 pp you can use Telekinesis (as the spell).

Does it make sense that the 7pp effect can be dispelled through psi/magic transparency, while the 5pp effect cannot? I'd be more inclined as a designer to say that for some uses of the discipline, the mystic duplicates the spell Telekinesis , 'except as noted below' (modifications to weight limits and functionality).

Personally, I would also prefer that mystic powers don't reference spells at all and act as their own subsystem, but also that detect/dispel spells have a means of operating on psi, though less effectively, and vice versa. But it seems we're stuck with the mechanic of at least some psi powers triggering spell-like effects, for reasons of backwards compatibility.

 

[steeldragons]

In the case of TK, specifically, I have to disagree.

I mean, yes, they should have smaller, more minor effects at lower levels. They should absolutely obtain "Wizard spell level" TK significantly earlier than 9th level.

By the time a wizard can duplicate TK power via their 5th level spell, the telekinetic Psychic at 9th level ought to be picking up and throwing boulders, stopping an entire volley of arrows or thrown spears, turning them around midair, and firing them all back at their senders, generating force domes/spheres equivalent to the "resilient sphere" spell to protect, completely (for as long as they can maintain it/withstand the pressure), all physical and energy attacks: breath weapons, spells of any source/variety, giant's pounding it with fists, whatever.

Similarly, the telepath psychic should be able to produce "Detect Thoughts" as the spell at, either 1st level or for 0 or 1 PP. By the time they are 3rd level, they should be able to do more than scrape surface thoughts. They should be able to delve into memories, at least, if not really "dig down in there" to alter memories or probe for specific information.

But I love me some Prof. X, Jean Grey, pre-ninja Psylocke, and want psionics producing those kinds of characters. D&D [psionics] hasn't really ever gotten that right [despite the blatant rip-off of post-ninja Psylocke for the "soulknife"].